Apr 24, 2023

Bryan Hoskins Phd. PE. Is a professor at Oklahoma State University in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program. Topics covered in this episode are myths about evacuation, performance based design, and understanding the intent of codes and standards.

 

Transcript: 

 

00:02.86
firecodetech
Well hello Bryan welcome to the firecode Tech podcast. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you because my pleasure. Awesome.

00:07.56
Bryan Hoskins
Thank you guys My pleasure. Glad to be here.

00:13.66
firecodetech
Well I always like to get these things started with talking about how you found fire and life safety as a career path.

00:22.41
Bryan Hoskins
Well my stories rather interesting I'll give you the short version here because I go on for a long time on this but it's also one I think it's fairly typical in fire protection. Um, and that well there are some people who know about fire protection early on.

00:38.87
Bryan Hoskins
I didn't actually discover it until after I was already in college. So I grew up in the San Francisco bay area um and after my junior year. My I have a twin brother so him and I convince our parents to take us on a three week 14 school tour. Um, where we hit schools throughout the entire country. Um that three week tour though was let's say we flew in and out of Nashville and went everywhere from Florida to Massachusetts and through the midwest and everything else. It was a very busy few weeks there. Um. But I know I want to do engineering because I like enjoyed math and science and my senior yearr in high school I had an advanced chemistry elective where well so a prevviewing wifi protection's a good decision. My group everything we did to get to choose their own experiments. Every one of mine groups except for one involves stuff exploding or flames or something else. Another elective I had in high school that I start out and enjoyed was psychology. So what do you do with chemistry fire. And psychology. Well it was obvious then looking back that yes fire protection special life safety was the route I was intended to go but I know I did existed. We happened to stop at the University Of Maryland

01:57.15
firecodetech
Are.

02:08.80
firecodetech
Wow.

02:11.43
Bryan Hoskins
Because my brother was he's the one who actually put Maryland on the list. Um, he really wanted to see it because he was going into aerospace engineering specifically astro there some opportunities there that he didn't that weren't available elsewhere so he put it on the list.

02:27.82
Bryan Hoskins
And while we had agreed that neither one of us was going to make the other one decide where they had to go to school. Um, we still end up applying to a lot of the same school so Maryland for me adding it on was something of well this way I mean I did enjoy the campus and if it was something that i. Oh wasn't necessarily a bad one and he really wanted to go there so I put an application but we'd agreed we weren't going to decide based on what the 1 did and then found out about an opportunity I got at Meland that I didn't have anywhere else which was I got accepted in to which I didn't even know this program applied when. Had even applied there but they had what's called the gemstone program which was a 4 year interdisciplinary team research undergraduate team research project in science technology and society and that really appealed to me so it's okay, I'll go to Maryland still no clue that fire protection exists. Um. I also knew I didn't know enough about the engineering field. So I went in undecided engineering and then it oh and I took my time to go and look around at the different majors. Um I know I didn't want to do electrical or computer because that wasn't something that necessarily appealed to me. But. What's the difference mechanical civil aerospace and oh this is fire protectionction 1 let me look at that as well. Um, and as I started to look at it. Some of the big selling points to me. Obviously as I said the okay like fire flames in that chemistry class psychology.

04:01.43
Bryan Hoskins
Really fits but 1 of the other big selling points on it to me and this is something that's also true of our program at Osu because Maryland program was founded by an osu alum but when I went to mechanical engineering to talk to them. It was as if I was a number. As I was just sitting there. The advisor said I mean what's the best way to put it later on though I was at an awards banquet a few years later that advisor was hinting out the wordss for mechanical engineering and read off a name and it see well I guess he's not here. She then walked up and so it was such an I mean I had the impression was a number thing and when one of your top students is getting awards you don't even know if they're a male student or a female student and he was the one who is advising everyone. Um. And there was that you're just a number meanwhile with fire protection when I went there I remember meeting with the program head on a Friday afternoon and we had a conversation someone like this one here where it was well let me know what you're interested in. Why were you considering this. Friday afternoon I got there like 4 we talked until about six o'clock so the facts there's a faculty member willing to stay talk to me about the program for a few hours on a Friday afternoon. Um, and there's really that sense of family and community and fire protection which is something that I thought.

05:20.74
firecodetech
Wow.

05:36.68
Bryan Hoskins
Yes, This is a good fit for me so curriculume lines up then oh the atmosphere lines up and that's how I got into fire protection. So a lot of sort of chances If This hadn't happened that hadn't happened wouldn't be here but I'm very glad that I found it because it is a. Probably the perfect fit for me.

05:55.89
firecodetech
Wow, That's awesome means some really neat stuff there in that first just your background piece talking about you know your interests at an early age in chemistry and and fire and then how that like that sense of family and.

06:05.54
Bryan Hoskins
With him.

06:12.16
firecodetech
In fire and life safety which is something I've always seen people kind of band together because of the just the nature of it and yeah I didn't know that about the okay state being founded by a Maryland lum either that kind of blows my mind because of the tensions between the 2 Oh yeah, yeah.

06:21.28
Bryan Hoskins
Me want a way around oh prof Brian who founded the program at Maryland Graduate from Osu.

06:30.64
firecodetech
Oh I didn't realize that Wow that's very interesting, Very interesting. Awesome Well to give the listeners a little bit more context Would you speak a little bit about your professional roles and.

06:33.80
Bryan Hoskins
Death.

06:50.45
firecodetech
Kind of positions that you've held and and how that work has colored your context now as a professor.

06:55.34
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, so in this I'll say 1 thing that I always encourage all of our students do and that's readily offered oh is getting internships so I'll start with some of the internships I had and how that sort of shaped. So my career decisions going forward. So first internship it was right after I had decided I was going to do fire protection because that was my sophomore year summer after Sophomore year I had had 1 fire protection class at that point so not too much in it. But oh. Was going to be home for the summer and wanted to have a meaningful experience and oh from that talk to professor milkke um, at Maryland that spring of the okay I'm going home for this I'm going be home for spring break then home for the summer. Um, I said before I grew up in the San Francisco bay area so the opposite coast of the country and it was so what options do we have out there. Um and he gave me context for 2 different alums that were in the bay area I met with both of them over spring break. Um. And then that led to a job offer from Jensen Hughes or actually at the time it was just cues. Um, because they had some major projects going on that summer where it was smoke control I had never had a smoke control class but they needed someone.

08:26.86
Bryan Hoskins
To climb up ladders and make sure dampers had closed um to go through and just do a lot of that type of work which okay, you don't need much in terms of classes and other things to be working on those projects. Um. And because how the schedule went in the month of July I got four days off Sunday the 1st july although that one almost didn't happen and then two of the other sundays um, and each day we were working again at the first job site about 9 am m leaving the last one about midnight one a m. Um, then I had to get home and rinse strike cycle repeat for the entire month. Um, now I was being paid over time for all those extra hours. So it was a very lucrative summer but what I really took away from that 1 um, was just that value of the hands on experience. Because never had smoke control but when I took smoke control later on elderly. Okay, this makes a lot more sense because I've seen it done it and understand what things are and even my class sits today I make sure when talk about smoke control. Okay when we're talking about the special inspector process. Well I was there as the guy was doing it. So here's what people do when they do this rather than as well I read about in a book. Um, but actually having that intimate knowledge there. Um I also while in school um spent a year. Well not quite a year because it was supposed to start.

10:02.91
Bryan Hoskins
In the fall of the year when there was the anthrax scare in the capol. So my position got delayed starting a little bit because that same office was dealing with all of that so they couldn't quite take on a student at the start of the semester. Um, but I was working with the congressional office of compliance and that was also a very. Eyeopening experience because dealing with the library of congress buildings dealing with congressional office buildings. There are I mean I got to see an actual halon system while I was there which is something that isn't very common. But there was a lot of understanding of from that sort of hj perspective. How do you do things especially in that environment where there's code compliance but you can't make that building code. Compliant. So how do you have to sort of analyze the hazards and while we weren't doing official performance-based design type of approach. It was that same process of understanding. Okay, what are the hazards what's the intent of the code. How can we make these buildings a situation safe. Enough for oh people to be in the building I was actually the first ever intern that they had hired um and it was a wonderful experience just to see it from that perspective other positions I've had before getting into academia.

11:32.62
Bryan Hoskins
Um I spent a year working for Europe um out there San Francisco office doing primarily life safety plan review which again, that's a lot of the okay so how is it that you go about applying things. To the real world. Plus it also helps I think when I have students of well why are you giving us this I had that assigned to me in my first six weeks on the job. You're gonna be graduating soon if they handed it to me. They can hand it to you. So let's get you ready for those things. Um. And again seeing sort of that overall hierarchy of how everything fits together and works together and you have in that office a lot of different trades plus also a lot of the workouts doing with more performance-based design and so really diving into again that sort of. Here's the intent of the code. How can we make sure that our building meets the intent of the code even if we can't quite meet the letter of it. Um, and then the other position I had before oh coming to Osu was working for the national instituteive standards and technology. Nist in the fire research area. Um, and that was a really meaningful experience in that I got to see just when you're trying to look at the problem finding identify. Okay.

13:06.58
Bryan Hoskins
Doing research identifying. Okay here's potential issues was it's collecting data here's what the data says um and being able to then bring that back into because National stand technology. It's the department of Commerce and so it's not just doing research for research Sake. It's and now how is this going to be used to help improve things and so that was a big learning experience there as well.

13:34.86
firecodetech
So That's awesome. Well I wanted to I see how you know your interests in the commercial more commercial side of things have influenced. So What you research Now. So That's very interesting I like hearing about that. Performance-based design and the different you know real-world application and you know looking back at my time at Osu I can see you know some of the exercises that we did in like you know our life safety class where we're really looking at the building code and functionally going through those.

14:03.64
Bryan Hoskins
We.

14:12.16
firecodetech
Now I do those every day so I'm very thankful for that background and when I got out into the workforce I could really see how that set okay state grads apart from people who didn't and were just looking at the code for the first time so I just wanted to.

14:25.73
Bryan Hoskins
You.

14:29.23
firecodetech
You know say thanks for that and then I could see that in your teaching and I and I resonate with that as you're speaking about it now. Um, but yeah.

14:34.87
Bryan Hoskins
Us to add on to that I'll just like to add that 1 thing that I've noticed happens. Well a lot in my career is that I try to bring that stuff into the classroom I've had students multiple many times write me like six months after they graduate of. Yeah, when going through your class I didn't understand why you expected us to know all this and do all this at the time thought it was ridiculous again, there's six months in their job. Don't change because it turns out this is what my employer expects so when the students grumble about it. Don't listen to them because what you're doing is a big service to them to help them getting ready for what the career world is rather than just the academic side of things.

15:28.23
firecodetech
Yeah, definitely I think that there is a lot of great stuff in the I had you for fire dynamics and the the life safety course and just I mean the fire protection engineering exam is very heavily weighted on that. Fire dynamics. It seems to me and that's a great thing that we could talk about too is your ah recent experience in helping with the sfp prep course but not to get too far off track but it just seems logical in the in the conversation topic. But.

15:52.65
Bryan Hoskins
Um.

15:59.45
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah.

16:04.34
firecodetech
It's all kind of placed together. You know you do it as a practicing engineer or at least a lot of people involved with performance based design do and then it's also in the engineering exam. So all these things kind of dovetail education experience and professional licensure.

16:20.63
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, I'd say it's as so they all dovetail together. Um people sometimes try to think about everything being separate but in reality, everything's always interconnected and woven you can't just focus in on 1 thing. It's always see well this ties into that and here's how everything interconnects and as you mentioned yeah I've been one of the things that I've done professionally is work with the SfPEP exam prep course which is something I very much enjoy because I Think. Talk a little bit more later about all my professional involvement but I think it's very important that oh at least in my position I Realize how much the people before me have done to set it up so where we have the profession that we do. And I think it's very important to give back because I and those again it's more label but part is I Went to back Demo's ability to give back to the profession to have an even bigger impact than I could by just being a consulting engineer for example or. Working in an Hj's office or whatever it is have an opportunity to give back because I realize how much others they've given to me and the P exam prep course is a good example of that because there are many many people who go through that.

17:50.12
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and I will say the success rate of students who have taken that course um, who've then gone on to pass pass rates much much higher than the overall pass rate and it's a sizeable percentage of people that are passing or basically taking that course. Because it does get into all the different topics. Um, it's for those students who've been at Osu you've already covered a lot of those topics in your classes and same thing goes to people who might have a degree from Maryland or Wpi or any of the other universities. But. As we all know that's not the majority of people in the field. Most people are there because they've got a degree in something else in those universities while we would love to be having more students. It's getting people to know about it before they come to college or in their first few years

18:33.12
firecodetech
Um, yeah.

18:45.90
Bryan Hoskins
Um, a lot of people don't discover the field until after they've graduated from college and so for those people who might have been a mechanical engineer by nature who so then they get hired by a firm that oh well, you can do air movement. So here start doing this vent work for a. Smoke control system or okay, you know fluids and pipes here you're gonna be doing sprinklers and so then they learn their one specific area but not all the others and the area I've been teaching though for the P exam Prep courses. Well both on passive Fire protection. Um, which is one that. But even a lot of people who've gone through some of those other programs in Osu don't have a deep knowledge base in um, what? well as to human behavior and have helped with the means of egress one as Well. So very much in just. Teaching people about okay here's what it means and like I do in my classes I tend to focus more on why things are the way they are in the codes and standards or how to approach problems and less on these sort of well here memorize these rules. Um. The reason being is that and I know number of us who have taught for the P Exam prep course we've had this conversation but is the intent of the course when you're teaching something like that just a get ready for the test or is it about.

20:19.70
Bryan Hoskins
Giving people the knowledge base they need to be successful in the field and I will sound that one while we are I said very good success rate and give people ready for the exam but there's also a lot of emphasis on not just here here's the question learn how to do these particular skills and then you're done. It's. Really trying to make sure that the people who go through that have a better understanding of what it means to be a fire protection engineer um not just that they can do certain problems because there's other P Exam Prep course is out there that are much more of that you just want to learn how to do problems. They'll do that. Um.

20:47.73
firecodetech
Yeah, yeah.

20:56.27
Bryan Hoskins
But personally I prefer the approach that sfpe has taken which is why that's the one I'm been working with um which is much more that holistic. Let's tell you what you need to know and in the process you'll get better for the exam. But ultimately I want. People who graduate from Osu that have been in my classes or who take that p exam prep course or any other professional development course that I teach is I want them to be able to go out and be a better professional. Not well I put in my time got the checkbox and so now it's time to move on.

21:34.11
firecodetech
Yeah I Know what you mean? Yeah,, That's a good point I like the sentiment of understanding the deeper meaning why and the more I get into my professional career the more I'm impressed by professionals that don't just can't aren't just regurgitating code. You know, but they understand the deeper meaning and the intent and and have the ability to push back when the official is is not asking for something that is not you know with what the intent of the code What is asking and so. Think that's very important the more you get into the profession is to understand why and not just be a code Jockey somebody who just you know is very lawyeristic I mean you have to be but um, you need both. But yeah.

22:22.29
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, yeah, and I'll also add to that one especially at Osu which the reason why there I'm even more stressing why things are the way they are done is I like to point out to students of one. The codes are always changing. Um, if you memorize all you're doing is memorizing numbers or something like that. Well what if you know the say twenty eighteen edition of the Ibc and then you're on the 21 edition of Nfpa one one. What's going on in those 2 but from a life safety standpoint the numbers change maybe well gray areas might shift one way or the other. But what's going on. There is no different love them. We get to the 2033 edit of the code I can guarantee you that there will be major differences from what there are now not necessarily sure what.

23:06.85
firecodetech
And.

23:19.16
Bryan Hoskins
Those are going to be um, but we know that they're going to change over time and if all that you ever do is memorize. Okay, here's what this one particular section is right now that doesn't give you the flexibility when you're going to the different additions of the code. Plus let's say you get. A project 1 time. That's overseas. Well you have to meet their code but you also have to consider from a life safety standpoint and what's going on there and are you actually meeting the temp because the intent of the codes. That's pretty much stable. We're not seeing Matt change. 1 addition to the next. And so understanding those helps with performance-based design helps when you end up in different jurisdictions. Um, and yeah, ultimately it's gonna make you a better professional if you understand why rather than simply relying on the what.

24:13.52
firecodetech
Yeah, that's a good point and you never know you know whether you're going to be working on a department of defense job or a V a job or a fm you know, global criteria job where the criteria is going to shift so dramatically that.

24:23.93
Bryan Hoskins
Um, okay.

24:31.51
firecodetech
You know if you don't have your fundamentals rock solid Then you're just gonna just be totally unwired in your capability to design or function in that space So is very important and um, but yeah, so let's talk about.

24:40.70
Bryan Hoskins
Never.

24:47.77
firecodetech
Your role now at Osu and we've alluded to it several times already. But um, ah, you know how you're a professor now and a little bit of background on the program at ok state of course go poke. So I'll always like to um. Promote the program when I get a chance to.

25:06.91
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, so oh Oklahoma State University has the oldest still active fire protection program in the nation. Um, so we've been around a long time longer than any of the others and it was founded. Originally. Um, to well teach some of the basics of fire protection then as study changed and Osha came into existence the program adding the safety con component. Now we have some students who think it's fire protection or safety. Um, but the facts you like to emphasis. It's fire protection and safety. Um a lot of what gets done in the fire protection realm in the safety realm you're doing a lot of the same basic things. Um. And so it's easy to transition from one to the other. They're not 2 distinct things. They're really in both cases you're trying to identify hazards trying to identify mitigation strategies for those hazards and then it just comes down to that specific application that you're applying it to. Um, but I will say the 1 thing that I think osu does better than any of the other programs I am biased here, but it's very much. It's an engineering technology program and engineering technology. What.

26:38.74
firecodetech
Um, yeah.

26:41.70
Bryan Hoskins
Separates that is it's far more based on the hands on so in our program majority of the classes that are in major have a lab component. So the students get to go actually touch feel experience see. Whaters arere talking about. They're not just reading about it in a book. Um, and I think that's a very valuable skill set to have um, going back to said earlier of learn about smoke control being able to go into buildings and see. Those dampers operating and seeing how the special inspection was going helped me understand that far more than just reading about in a book does um and so I think that's one of the big advantages to the Osu program is that hands on applied. Oh part of the program. And not just pure theory now as far as what I've taught there what I cover. Um, okay I've just said it's not it's fire and safety. That being said I tend to teach classes are a little bit more fire focused because that's. I got my degree. Oh that's also I mean I'm a professional fire protection and I'm a professional licensed fire protection engineer. So yeah, that's my main area but as far as that goes oh my first semester at Osu I was teaching.

28:11.19
Bryan Hoskins
Butker design and oh the at the time called structural design for fire and life safety where it covered passive fire protection and nfpa one one basically put the building code passive fire protection nfpa one a one and human behavior all into one course.

28:29.61
firecodetech
Our shit.

28:30.65
Bryan Hoskins
Um, we have since split that up some because it was about too too many important Concepts all being crammed into one course. Um so I've taught I said taught their own passive life safety Human behavior.

28:49.83
Bryan Hoskins
And building code all at once then the next semester added in human factors. Um, which okay, that's not fire protection but it's closely related to a lot of things I do which is looking at human response and emergencies.

29:09.50
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and so it ties in very much directly with the research and again life safety side that I've been interested in after that because of some changes in faculty and other changes I taught oh and continue to teach The. So suppression detection course. Um that covers as again as's one as class we put probably too much in at first because it's the only class in the major on fire alarms. The only class in the major that covered special Hazards um and covered the start of Sprinkler systems.

29:46.58
Bryan Hoskins
All into one course. Um, now we split off that special Hazards more into an elective which I teach Um, that's also available as a grad course and that suppression detection class has shifted to being still the introduction to sprinkler systems as well as much more on fire alarms.

29:54.25
firecodetech
Um.

30:04.61
Bryan Hoskins
And just how codes and standards operate and work then I also as you mentioned earlier top fire dynamics for a few years um as just as best fit for who was on faculty at the time be teaching that I've taught oh smoke control.

30:24.36
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and oh yeah, so that's pretty much everything on the pe exam prep course except for I haven't yet got fluids because of just other faculty have gotten that one. Um, but I've covered so much of What's on the p exam but I also think it's important. Um for someone who's a professor to have taught that wide range because 1 in order to understand if you can understand you you can teach something you have to understand it. Um, and. Because if you're trying to teach and you don't understand it. It's going to be a failure for everyone at that point. Um and so having that is good plus by having that bread. Of course that I've taught I mean and you might remember this from some of the class but routinely point out. And then in this class here's how this ties together and then in this class. Oh so bringing in those connections which you know best when? okay, very taught that class. So okay, well in that class. You did this here's how that's relevant here because far too often students. Um, which they learn better than this when they get older but students a lot of times view the class that say okay I have to learn this stuff for the test and then I can immediately forget it and never have to know it again. Um, and they don't.

31:57.57
Bryan Hoskins
See all those interconnections but the as many of your listeners probably know as you get into a real profession even if oh there's one area that you primarily work in you don't just use the 1 class and that's it. You're having to pull in multiple things all through it. Everything's interconnected and so by teaching all those things it makes it even easier for me to point out to the students directly. Okay, you covered that here. That's how this applies here. So if you need to go back and review what was there this would be a good time to do it. To just tie in this entire experience of learning. Um rather than viewing it as a bunch of separate individual steps.

32:43.64
firecodetech
Oh yeah, That's a great point because our profession is notorious for being just widespread I mean mechanical systems electrical systems life safety and you're looking at building construction and paci fire protection and So. You're you the whole profession is based on being a jack of all trades. So.

33:09.42
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, and I will say earlier I'd mentioned how I end up fire protection. The one part I meant to add in there as well is to just echo what you said is one of the other things that that to our conversation with the program had um that drew me in was that. You had to be f like we have to pull in all these different things because just personally I prefer having to okay I can use stuff from Psychology Sociology and human Behavior. So You have to understand that you have to understand the mechanical civil. As but to a lot of other majors where you end up being much more siloed you're not using as many different things and that required breath was something that definitely peeled to me because it was yes, there's more to this field. More opportunities more career paths that are available than in some of the others.

34:09.67
firecodetech
That's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a good career for somebody who likes to be interested in in varied pursuits and very engineering so varied engineering systems because. I Mean there's just so many different things you could look at especially I mean people get into product fire protection and Ul listings and ah fm approvals I mean so you could be looking at fire and lie safety characteristics about anything in the built environment and then also and in the product market as Well. So if you.

34:23.49
Bryan Hoskins
Given.

34:39.67
Bryan Hoskins
And that's one of the big advantages of yeah and I would say that's also one of the big advantages to the Osu program because it ties in again, both bar protection and safety. We've had many alums that they start out going down one path.

34:42.57
firecodetech
If you want variety. It's integrate trade.

34:57.89
Bryan Hoskins
And then go down something completely different and then get us something else because of what opportunities come up and just having that Osu degree has opened up doors that a lot of the other people just didn't have available to them because of how special our program is and. All the different things that it touches on it really gives someone many different options for where they want their career to go.

35:27.66
firecodetech
There's a great point yet fire protection has awesome career opportunity and I love that point also about that you said about the hands on nature of the experience at Oklahoma state because as a professional you know. Everything looks good on paper and so you can design something and think oh yeah, it looks great. It meets all the code criteria. Well it doesn't fit in the room so you need to think about what does this physically look like and so I think that's a very important distinction to make that. Physical and corporeal manifestation of these fire and life safety features are just as important as their code compliance. But so I wanted to break into a little bit of your expertise in.

36:12.79
Bryan Hoskins
Um.

36:21.65
firecodetech
Um, evacuation and sort of your research topics. But I know that you have a big interest in these areas and just I was reading some of your technical one of the. Papers or pieces of work that you put out I'm not as well versed in like how to analyze or read literature this produce in Academia but I was trying and doing some research for the show. But I'd love to talk about? um.

37:00.70
firecodetech
Just evacuation and what you're researching now and get into your professional expertise.

37:04.22
Bryan Hoskins
Okay, so I where I've taught everything but my and as far as again so that ging also I'll touch on that sort of Breadth of knowledge of my senior research project. Was on passive fire protection looking at the effect of missing spray applied material on a steel. Trust my master thesis was on oh characterizing the flow from a foam nozzle. Um, both of those were based on the K which projects are available which projects have funding sure I can do that. Um, but good experiences. But for the Ph D I knew I needed to do something that was going to be what I enjoy because if you're going to torture of yourself to go through that process of getting a Ph D which I've done it and I still think anyone who does it is partially Insane. Um. There's no other real rational explanation there? Um, but going through that I knew it had to be something that I would enjoy because if you're spending that many years that diving that deep on a topic.

38:02.89
firecodetech
Um.

38:14.62
Bryan Hoskins
If it's not something that you truly have a passion about it's not going to end up Well um, and my passion I knew was in the area of human behavior and fire. Um I said Psychology Oh in high school tying that in.

38:21.00
firecodetech
Yeah.

38:31.93
Bryan Hoskins
And also life safety. Why am I in this field. Ultimately when I think about it's to help people. Um, it's what I want to do and not that designing a sprinkler system isn't helping people. It is um because you're keeping them safe when there's a fire. But looking at that human aspect and understanding how people behave and respond um is something that was very much of a yes this is something I need to be doing with my career. This is the avenue I want to go down. Um, and so my. Matt for my ph d um I spent a few years going through some stairwell building evacuations. Um, basically going frame by frame tracking what people were doing other people.

39:27.57
Bryan Hoskins
Again, going back to the insane part thought that I can sit there day after day going frame by frame getting over 10000 data points collected from this. Um, that's to say they wouldn't have done it themselves but gingling back to that hands on part of it. What I found most valuable about that. Um was going through that I got a much better understanding and feel for what was going on there because if all that you have is numbers k engineers give me numbers. Give me. Oh. Excel or Spss Or Saft or one of those and I can spit out stuff I can get answers. But in the research field. 1 of the things that a lot of us. Well everyone knows is you can get numbers. But. The job of the researcher is to understand what those numbers mean and to put them into practice. Um, and so one of the I mentioned this in my class a lot but with human behavior and fire pretty much everything that we discover and new is not anything that.

40:24.79
firecodetech
Are a.

40:41.81
Bryan Hoskins
Is ever the Wow How is that true I would never have expected that it's always see Yeah, that's how things are but yet we've been designing not with that for years and I'll get into some examples of that um tuna. Well.

40:47.98
firecodetech
Here.

40:57.19
firecodetech
Um, and.

41:00.39
Bryan Hoskins
First of all I'll talk about this is predates me but 1 of the big myths in human behavior is myth of panic because there was actually for years and years and years was you don't tell people what's going on in a building when there's a fire because they'll start to panic. Panics irrational anti-social behavior. Basically someone starts standing there frozen in fear or shoving other people all the way and so on you can find lots of examples of this in hollywood clips. Um, actually one lab in by safety I play a bunch of clips from Tv and movies showing how. They portray evacuation of fire and then find clips on like Youtube of how it actually responds um in that. What do we see the fire alarm goes off if people get up because that's just a drill I can just ignore this if they get up. They're walking orderly patiently letting other people pass them even when we look at oh case studies of real fires same thing so there was no reason to keep that information from people. But that's what the industry thought was everyone's going to panic. Um. Or there's another example that again predates me. But um, this one's 1 found by Prof Brian that again is not surprising but early code development and requirements were based on everyone would just walk out the building and that's basically's a fluid particle and that's how it would be.

42:37.54
Bryan Hoskins
He came up with this Oh when he studied the Runndo Park fire. This revolutionary thing parents will go in after their children if they're left behind and they can't find them oh because parents went back in for their children that burning building or other people went in to rescue friends and other things rather than just the back wing outside and. That was revolutionary at the time but yet no one's also shocked that wait a parent would go after their kid. It's more the wait. Why would anyone think otherwise but that's what the industry did at the time so in my dissertation One of the big findings I had there. Um that has.

43:06.59
firecodetech
Um, well.

43:15.64
Bryan Hoskins
Changed how oh we approach some things is since I said it's looking at people back wing downstairs when you walk downstairs. You don't go straight make a ninety degree return go across make a ninety degree turn and go down. It's more of an arc a semicircle type shape around the landing I even remember talk to my advisor about this and it see are you sure so then pull up the videos. Yep and when I bring it up in class now I'm yet to find it tune of no no I walk down and make those sharp angles. Okay, well let me phrase it I've then had students when we did things onstairs walk that way simply to prove a point but it doesn't happen in real life and so that's thing a lot of this st in human behavior and fire is just pointing that out. Um, also say 1 thing I've done a number of. Talks and talk about human behavior and fire is mentioned okay, imagine the scenario you are sitting in an airport a major metropolitan airport. One of those hub airports and the fire alarm goes off oh what are you going to do. And then play a video that's on Youtube of a fire at one of the major hub airports and was it show and you can pull this up yourself from multiple different airports multiple different places. Other things was it show. Everyone's sitting there. Oh no, 1 ne's trying to get back through security.

44:49.42
Bryan Hoskins
Um, to have to cross back through and every time I've talked to people is that what you expect all but well all, but basically 1 time have I had people say yeah, that's what I expected. The 1 time was talking to a bunch of politicians. And they were shocked that not everyone listened to the directions. Um I guess politicians have a different perspective on things but everyone else is the yeah that doesn't surprise me. That's what I'm used to That's why I expect the announcement comes on and people ignore it. And so that then gets into and I've done research in this area as well. Not just the movement but also looking at how do we effectively get information to people what is needed to get them to go from that just sitting there to actually starting to evacuate and so. How is it that the notification process works getting time back into that human behavior and fire area.

45:52.91
firecodetech
Yeah,, That's very interesting I Definitely think Politicians have a different view of reality. But that's ah off topic. Um, that's but ah, another thing I was just thinking about and I didn it to. Provide this before this might be I don't know if you'll have an answer for this but I had a question about like performance based design versus a more prescriptive design and I know that the answer is probably it depends. But.

46:28.50
Bryan Hoskins
Nothing.

46:30.60
firecodetech
If you could give any insight to which one of these methods have greater allowances for life safety or if there is a break even point in building size or complexity where that might be.

46:49.39
Bryan Hoskins
So you're right? The answer is it depends. Um, it's actually it's difficult in that I don't think that there is a specific point of.

46:51.26
firecodetech
That's a difficult.

47:02.92
Bryan Hoskins
Okay, when you get to this may square foot this many dollar figure. Whatever metric of sort of a cut and dry line. Um, because for example, New Zealand at one point went to everything had to be performance based and that did not work so well.

47:21.98
Bryan Hoskins
Um, but everything being prescriptive does not work. Well either. And really if we look at and I talk about this in life safety. So this is not really too far with stretch for a question I so of already know my answer in advance and actually talking about this. Just. Yesterday in class when we look at the prescriptive code. The prescriptive code is in many ways a performance base code and hear me out on this when we look at the prescriptive code. Where do numbers like maximum travel distance come from number of exits come from. Well it's based on golden objectives that could set so nfpa 1 one for example, is anyone not into most fire shall be kept safe long enough to evacuate relocate. Um, or defend in place and so you can see that similarity to okay and you're doing performance space design you have to come up with your goals and objectives and that's very easily one that's going to be there anyone not into with fire shall be kept safe.

48:35.34
Bryan Hoskins
And then if we look at the code how they okay theoretically where did numbers like travel distance. Oh come from. Well it's based on a typical building. We'll have this type of fuel loading in it and that's why it's different for chakmancy in part. Um, so here's the expected fuel loading here's the expected ceiling height. Oh therefore the time until the smoke layer descends to where people are at should be about this much time we know the speed people walk at put in a safety factor there. And so with this setup everyone will be out safely before the fire becomes too big now I say theoretical. That's where it comes from because I think most of its numbers actually came from people at a conference room 1 time going. Okay, we need to come up with a number. Okay, that 1 looks good. Let's see there. Um, but. In theory where it comes from its at so like the ockment load factors where do they come from going out studying a building counting the number of people getting the dimensions and adapting it for that. So the prescriptive code. It's very good. For a building that's similar to that assumed building and many of our buildings are because you're dealing with okay seven foot 6 to ten foot ceiling heights not too much different. The commodities in them are gonna be about the same people in them. We can start to come up with those.

49:56.10
firecodetech
Um, and.

50:03.47
firecodetech
Naning.

50:09.32
Bryan Hoskins
Methods to approximate what it's going to be and as far as the having the committee then set what the minimum standard is saves a lot of time and effort because if every project has to be performance based.. That's a significant time investment. Um, for all the stakeholders involved and for a simple 3 story office building where they're building 50 of them in the town type of thing. Why go through each one of those projects and have to do that when the prescriptive code works very well for that. It saves time effort money. So for a simple building that's sort of meeting what that stereotypical building sort of underlying the prescriptive descriptive codes is just do prescriptive but a number of the numbers in the prescriptive code.

51:03.20
firecodetech
Um, appreciate that.

51:07.94
Bryan Hoskins
And mentioned in class yesterday they're arbitrary what I mean by that is let's say I have 500 people in a room I can have two doors out of there and it's perfectly acceptable by code perfectly safe I put in 1 more person.

51:16.60
firecodetech
Um, yeah.

51:25.42
Bryan Hoskins
Point two percent change in the occupant load that one person I now have to put in a third exit door have I really changed the safety in that building by changing the augment load by 0.2% that I now have to. Put in a third door. No 501 peoples meet just as safe as five hundred with two exits there's not any study date or anything 500 is round number and that's the number they got picked now I'm not saying that 500 bad number I'm saying it's an arbitrary number and that's the advantage to performance space design on 1 project that I worked on. Um while at europe there was a large casino. Um, that was being proposed to be built and to make it work.

52:05.63
firecodetech
Yeah.

52:21.51
Bryan Hoskins
They're gonna have to have some like 12 or 13 stairs to meet travel distance requirements scattered throughout that floor. The owner did not like that idea why for security reasons putting in a lot of stair shafts makes dead spaces and security becomes a problem also just the. Um, beyond that they wanted there so you can look across the room and see the person winning way over there. Um, so that way you felt like you could be winning at your table so they wanted that more open area and travel distance is meaningful for a normal building.

52:43.55
firecodetech
My kids.

52:58.79
Bryan Hoskins
But let's think about against one of those major Las Vegas casino type places you have a huge floor plan. So how long is it going to take the smoke to descend all the way down to where the people are at and the answer was a very long time I went to the fire modeling to. Determine what it was but it was in excess of 20 minutes um and so then if we can get everyone out of there by just putting in I think we had doing so like 4 5 6 stairs at the different outside of the building. It gets the owner what they want.

53:37.15
Bryan Hoskins
And we're gonna get everyone out of that building safe if there's a fire I have no doubt about that in my mind. Um, why because that building's not a typical building the wide open floor plan made it different and ultimately what's the goal of the fire protection Community. Keep people safe in the event of a fire. So As long as we can keep people safe in the event of a fire then well that's what matters and so that's what we need to be able to show and so and why prohibit the owner from doing something. If. It's going to be safe to do it and so that's the advantage performance base design when the uniqueness of the architecture or materials being used will still lead to the same level of safety as the base code provides. Then it should be our job as practicing engineers in the field of life safety Fire protection. Um, but to make sure that those building owners can do the things that they want to do can use their buildings the way they want to do but doing it in a safe way. And that's what performance spaces design and allows us to do and so I'm not gonna I say I'm not go set a specific dollar figure or a square footage or anything else. But if the prescriptive code does not meet the owner's desires then the performance based design becomes an option.

55:12.44
Bryan Hoskins
To be able to allow them to do what it is. They want to do and if they just want to go prescriptive because that's goingnna be a less expensive option. That's their choice. Um, but if or if they have just set in a more building and the prescriptive code works fine then great. Shown that it's safe enough. But for those unique designs for those buildings where they want to do something a little bit different then that's our job to make it so where they can accomplish their goals but do it in a way that's safe.

55:34.36
firecodetech
Um, and.

55:48.11
firecodetech
I Appreciate that. That's a perspective on performance based design I don't think I've heard before I don't have as much experience with it. But I appreciate that sentiment In. You know how that discretion call and really understanding the factors of what safety level that the prescriptive code provides and matching that calculated or performance-based design methods is very interesting but.

56:25.41
firecodetech
Anyways, well I just want to wrap things up and say thank you for talking Brian I could talk to you for another 2 hours probably you've been just a a walt of knowledge on and we didn't even get to speak about your professional society involvement more and. Your thoughts on the industry and where things are going but I want to be mindful of what you got planned today and maybe we can have you on that in the future again to cover some of those topics.

56:51.17
Bryan Hoskins
Absolutely be happy to. It's great talking to and again you bring on a professor I get paid to talk for a living so always enjoy talking about the industry of the field and doing everything we can to help promote it continues to that growth.

57:08.57
firecodetech
Definitely well I appreciate it. You make it easy on me which I enjoy of course but alrighty we'll we'll wrap it up.

57:12.10
Bryan Hoskins
Thank you.