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Sep 27, 2021

Welcome to episode 37 of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are speaking to Virginia Charter the program coordinator for the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program at Oklahoma State University. On this episode we discus a myriad of topics ranging from career opportunities in fire protection to high-rise construction in Las Vegas Strip.

 

How did you find your way into the fire protection program?        

Would you speak more about your project work as an FPE?

What is the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program at Oklahoma State University?

What advice would you have for someone looking to find a job in this irregular climate?

Would you speak about your experience with professional societies?

What kind of research are you involved in at OSU?

 

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the.

You're in the right place. Hello. All welcome to episode 37 of fire code tech. In this episode, we're speaking with Virginia charter. Virginia is the program coordinator of the Oklahoma state fire protection and safety engineering technology program. And this episode has been a real bucket list episode for me, Virginia is one of the people who inspired me to get into the career of fire protection engineering.

And so we talk on some of her very interesting project work in Clark county, um, dealing with high rises and a variety. Uh, large projects with the complex stakeholder groups. So I just am so excited to speak with, uh, one of the faculty members at Oklahoma state who was extremely influential in my career and, uh, someone who is, uh, uh, very bright and intelligent.

So yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode. It's a really, really good one. Also don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media so you can stay tuned on. What's happening. And if you wouldn't mind, you could give us a five star review on apple podcasts. It helps out well, Virginia, welcome to fire code tech.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. Well thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm so excited. You've been, uh, somebody who I've wanted to have on for a long time. Probably. I was thinking about, uh, having you on when I was starting the podcast. Didn't reach out for a while after I started it, but I'm excited to get a chance to speak with you.

Yeah, I'm finally, I I'm glad that we were able to finally get it, get it set. I know, I know it took a while. This. The, the pandemic has sure. Shifted things in what we've been doing and, and made things a lot crazier. So yeah. I'm, I'm glad we've been able to do it. Yeah. It's definitely been a, a wild time. So now I understand lots of changes in shifting gears for you as a, just being in, um, higher ed.

It's been. Pretty much, uh, I don't know how many tropes I can fit in for unprecedented or times or different, different phrases like that, but it has been, um, pretty unique. That is definitely one way to put it for sure. So, but, um, so I kind of like to get started with these, uh, podcast, by asking people about how they found fire protection or how they found fire and life safety.

So I'd love to hear about. How you, uh, found your way into, um, fire and life safety and, uh, yeah, the, the, okay. State F PST program. Uh, sure. So I, um, going way back to at least, um, my schooling. So I went to OSU or Oklahoma state in fire protection and safety engineering technology. And, um, I had gotten interested in the program.

I grew up in Ohio. and, um, my older sister had a friend, um, that she graduated with that actually came to OSU, uh, for the same program. And that's kind of where it PED my interest. So I was interested in the program or the idea of fire protection, um, engineering and, and looking. That versus other engineering disciplines, um, from pretty early on like early in high school compared, and that's very different compared to a lot of other, um, students in the past, they TA they take, um, into our field.

Uh, and so that got me interested and, um, and so I ended up coming to OSU that's. Uh, the one school I applied to , um, because that's, uh, from everything I'd read about it with it being the oldest program and the, the amount of, um, curriculum and diversity that you go of the fields that you could go into really peaked my interest.

And, um, so that's where I started. Um, and then while I was at OSU, I had. A variety of internships. Um, everything from, I worked one summer in Indianapolis, uh, and lived in an extended stay hotel. I didn't have to pay for it. Uh, the company did, but I was doing, um, inspection testing and maintenance of fire alarm and sprinkler systems.

And then I also worked, um, for, um, Lockheed Martin for a summer in Fort worth, um, doing safety and health. And then I also interned at, um, the Stillwater fire department under the fire marshals office. And so I had a lot of different experiences. And even though those were all awesome internships and they were perfect for my growth in learning and developing in the field.

I still wasn't real sure what I wanted to do when I graduated. Uh, and so I had an opportunity, um, to work for, um, a company is formally named, uh, Ralph Jensen and associates. It's now known as Jensen Hughes. And, um, I took a position, um, out at their Las Vegas office after I graduated and. You know, kind of a little bit is the rest of the, his, the rest is history, if you will.

But I worked there for nine years. Um, that's where I got my PE license, um, in Nevada. And, um, I was also able to work on my master's degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute, so WPI, um, and, uh, and then while I was there, um, and I was taking graduate classes and, and working full time. I really started to think about, you know, what do I wanna continue to do from a future perspective?

I loved consulting. Um, and you know, one of the things that I really enjoyed during my time in consulting and. You might be able to even vouch for this is just when you get younger employees that come in, um, and training 'em on or educating them on the ways of fire protection engineering and the different things that you go through, uh, based upon either maybe it's something that wasn't covered in the curriculum, or maybe you're dealing with a.

Graduate of a different engineering discipline. That was really common for us out on the west coast because, um, we didn't have a undergraduate program that we could pull from directly. So we would get, um, you know, uh, graduates from Arizona state, U N L V um, even some parts of Southern California that they maybe came from mechanical or electrical engineering, and we would work with them and, and teach them.

And educate them on all the different things, fire protection engineering. And that was one of the things I really enjoyed. And I also enjoyed working with architecture firms, doing kind of the, the lunch presentation of different aspects of code, um, and things like that. And so I kind of had an epiphany at one point and I thought, gosh, it would be great to go back to OSU and to be able to teach, um,

And so then I started looking into that and, you know, I was already working on my master's degree at the time, which was, which was good. And it just so happened that an opportunity came up and, uh, my husband and I talked about it. We, um, by the time we interviewed and we had two small children, uh, his family is based in Oklahoma, so I was like, let's apply and see what happens.

Um, and. So then, uh, I moved back to Oklahoma, uh, with our family in 2014. And I've been at OSU ever since I teach mostly on suppression systems, uh, fluid mechanics. And then, um, I work with senior design projects, risk control engineering class, as well as, um, an advanced, uh, building design class. And so it's been a lot of fun, um, to just work with all the students and see them progress from.

Freshman through seniors and all that kind of stuff. So, um, it's been an interesting career path so far. That's awesome. I appreciate the exposition on, uh, your early career. I definitely hear what you're saying about getting that opportunity to. Kind of explored the nuances of what it means to be an, an engineer and kind of walk somebody through that kind of process.

Uh, as we were talking about a little bit, uh, before we started recording, you know, uh, I had a intern this summer and it was, uh, a huge challenge and just like growth opportunity for me to be able to take somebody who didn't have. Um, there are not too many notions of the formal process of design and kind of take 'em through that.

So I definitely resonate with that, um, that piece, but yeah, I think it's interesting. You got so many good internships when you're in school. That must, uh, even with all those internships, it's, it's still hard to know what. what you wanna do when you get outta school. So that's awesome that you got to do so many different things.

Yeah, it's it, it's kind of the, the age old question of what do I wanna be when I grow up and, um, I think internships add such a value, um, to the student experience, even though they're not required. They're so good for students even to go out there and just see what things are like. Um, see what it's like to work with companies of different cultures or, um, you know, organizations in safety and health versus fire protection versus, you know, all of those different things are just so valuable to the students and helps validate some of the things that they're learning in the classroom.

Yeah. I think that it definitely adds a layer. Uh, understanding, you know, when you have this, um, in the field experience, coupled with the educational experience and probably even helps you, uh, gain more outta your educational time, if you have some, uh, hands on and, uh, intern experience. But yeah, I definitely, uh, felt that.

Um, even though I, the one internship I had, I didn't end up doing anything even remotely close to that. So, um, and that's okay too. Exactly. That's totally fine. But, um, I always like to ask, I know that, um, you've been out of consulting for a while, but. One of the big influences for me getting into fire protection engineering was hearing you talk about your experience as a professional.

Um, I really enjoyed, uh, hydraulics and, uh, sprinklers. I had 'em. In your first two years, I think in school. And you were one of my big influences for wanting to be a FPE. So another reason why I was really excited to talk to you on the podcast. Yeah. I'd love to hear more about some of the, the project work that you had the opportunity to work on, um, in your time as a consulting FPE, if you wouldn't mind.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so as you can imagine in Las Vegas, a lot of my stories and time, um, there. Have to do with the really large hospitality industry that services Las Vegas and looking, working on those, um, strip properties. Uh, we did work also on things like hospitals and military bases. Um, but that wasn't our bread and butter out there.

Um, we spent a significant amount of time and when I moved out there on those strip properties, there was just. At the time that I moved out there, there were multiple new projects going on, um, on the strip. And so, but of course, when I first started, you don't start, um, they don't hand you a several hundred thousand dollars project to manage.

We, I started on small things like tenant improvements. So building changeouts, um, or tenant change outs in malls or office buildings and starting to. Gain a depth of knowledge of how changes in a building can be impacted by, um, just a small tenant change out, um, uh, can impact the overall building life safety systems, everything from.

How you have to modify sprinkler and fire alarm, how you have to look at and make sure that they aren't impacting, um, any smoke control systems and making sure the egress system is still, um, appropriate and compliant. And so, you know, we started there, but you know, some of the big projects that I really worked on that would probably be recognizable to your audience.

Um, during the time of construction, we called it project city center. Uh, but when it opened the different hotel resort names were called aria. Um, there was the Vdara tower, the veer condo towers and the Mandarin, um, that were all associated with that property, as well as the Crystal's retail mall. Uh, and so a lot of my focus on that particular project.

Uh, I helped oversee the crystals retail mall, uh, project management, as well as the, uh, Vdara, which was like a combination of hotel and com um, and condos, uh, depending on like which floor level you might have been on, but it was an entire complex, um, that the original plan was to add something. Like 8,000 keys to the strip, which means that, you know, 8,000 different hotel or condo, um, spaces.

Uh, but it was integrated because everything on that building was tied together. Uh, there was a sub train garage that tied all of the building parts together. We had three different, um, architecture firms, um, working on the different portions of the building. and, um, but we, one of the things that the jurisdiction required as a part of that project due to the size is they wanted a single fire protection engineer firm to cover the design and, um, fire protection and life safety analysis reports, uh, to cover all of that.

Um, and so that's, uh, where we came in and so we helped do a lot of coordination across the site because there was a single, um, Fire alarm station, fire alarm system, in a sense like there was a central fire command center for the entire property. There was actually two of them. Um, there was a, the primary, and then there was a, a backup fire command center.

And then, um, the water supply loop served, um, the entire site. And so that included low zone and mid zone pumps. Um, and then each of the towers also had high zone pumps. Um, . And so there was a lot of coordination all the way across the site. Um, and that was a lot of fun to work on. Um, essentially when I started there, they were, they were in preliminary kind of design and I worked on that project and other projects, but that project took years.

Um, and by the time they, you know, opened, um, you know, I'd been with the company, I'm trying to remember when they actually opened. Maybe the 2009 timeframe. So I'd been there for at least four years. Um, but just all of that coordination, I, I can't imagine where else I could have learned that amount of or have that amount of experience on something elsewhere in, in the world.

Um, just because of how complex. That particular property was and how it tied together with just about everything else on that property. Wow. That's an incredible story. I can only imagine the meetings with three different architecture firms. Uh, you know, I've had small Highrise buildings only in my career and, uh, they pose such a great level of complexity.

Uh, you know, I have a, there's a fire protection designer working at my company now who used to work. In Clark county, uh, in fire suppression design and the way, uh, that the hydraulics work in the building of that height, you know, having to have, like you said, three, three levels of pumps. That's just, uh, bizarre the scale of that to me, um, all of the pressure, reducing valves and pumps within that building are, uh, really just, uh, kind of.

I don't know, it just, it sounds like a UFO to me, for most of the buildings that I work on, that kind of scale is, is really huge. Um, I don't know if like 8,000 units, I don't think it does it justice for the size and magnitude of this building that you're talking about, but I can kind of envision it and being in the industry.

uh, just a short time, like, you know, when, when so many people and, and I'm sure you experience this, but when you walk into a building and you think, wow, this is a really neat building. There's just so much engineering work that goes into that building to make sure it functions appropriately. Like, you know, everything from mechanical comfort air to, um, making sure the lights are on and all that kind of stuff to the far end of making sure that there are systems in.

That work, um, and are appropriately, you know, tested and installed that should something happen. It will be there. Um, and so that. One of the, my passions, especially with fire protection engineering, is that you're, you're working on a building and while you don't ever really want those systems to have to be used, I have a pride in the fact of that when we do these Texas systems or we work in these kind of buildings, people can go to those.

Uh, facilities and have that assumption that they are safe in those facilities and that, um, and that things are put in place that they can enjoy their time there and not have to worry about those types of things. And so I think that's one of the things is like it's a lot of background work of doing life safety and fire protection, but there is a pride in it because.

Sometimes you do get to have that experience where your system or something that you've worked on, does what it's supposed to and you know, that helps prevent injuries and saves lives. Yeah, that's a great point. It feels good to know that there are these really robust systems inside of this monolithic building that's being designed for, uh, thousands of people.

That's pretty, that's pretty wild. I like hearing about that, but, um, yeah, I don't know. I just, uh, it's really interesting to think about the complexity and, uh, the project stakeholders. It's, I'm sure that was a monumental task. It's it's hard to being in project groups with stakeholders of, you know, like a third or a quarter of that size.

So the. Hundreds of millions of dollars that go into something that complex, um, awe inducing, I guess maybe for me, I'm just kind of reeling here as a code nerd, but, um, anyways, well, I wanted to, uh, break into a little bit more on your time at OSU and just for people who aren't as familiar with the program, I just, um, Would love to, to hear, uh, a, you know, a high level description of some of the, the different aspects and, and facets of the, of the program.

Um, don't know if you would mind give us some exposition on that? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so. The program at OSU has been around since the nine late 1930s. And it has evolved heavily over that time, um, in the seventies. Uh, and this was real common, uh, in the United States and higher education. At that time, it became a four year program.

It was originally a two year program. And that's actually when the safety component was added into the program, um, to kind of make it a more robust, um, and all encompassing program. And we became accredited in the seventies and we are the, um, oldest existing program of that kind, uh, that has been accredited, uh, through ABET, um, And our program as it's evolved over time, um, we've kind of gone, you know, some of the original focus was very much on a little bit more of the fire service.

Uh, not necessarily training the fire service per se, but, you know, looking at those kind of fire protection aspects and as the field of fire protection engineering has grown. Um, the topics and things like that have grown, um, you know, an example of this is that when I took fire dynamics at OSU, that was a relatively new course in the early two thousands.

Um, and that. Um, fire dynamics now is really where we see a lot of, um, growth in the overall discipline and, and really understanding fire behavior and, and what happens, um, you know, on these high challenge areas and trying to protect those. And so the program itself, uh, four year program, um, we cover topic.

From the basics of suppression and detection systems and hazard analysis, uh, to the engineering science of fluid mechanics and sprinkler design. We also cover things like occupational safety and process safety, uh, hazardous materials, industrial hygiene, um, and in risk control. Um, that's kind of our senior level class.

It may have been called loss prevention when you were at school. Uh, and. Really what we've talked a lot about of what our graduates are all about is they, we call them risk control specialists regardless of what field they go into. And that's because there's so many things that tie so closely. If you go into the safety and health field, you're, you're looking at risk.

From one perspective. Um, if you go into the insurance industry, whether in safety and health or on the fire protection side, you're looking at risk from a different perspective. And then on the fire protection engineering side design side consulting side, you are again looking at risk, um, from a very different perspective.

And so we look at it that we kind of have this, you know, trifecta between safety, health, and fire protection, um, of risk control and really understanding, um, from. Big picture idea of risk. And then maybe the field you work in, you only work in one aspect of controlling that risk and, um, with my time at OSU, uh, so it goes back to 2014, uh, when I first started and, you know, I think you're right, you may have been in either my first or second semester of, of fluids and, um, Really trying to, um, instill in the students that the things that we learn in the, the classroom while sometimes you may not always do those calculations every day in the field, but how it can really relate to.

The safety, health and risk control that you can have as that engineer or what have you. Um, and so, uh, but like I said, I started in 2014, um, and my primary classes were fluid mechanics and then sprinkler design and I still teach those classes. They're some, they're some of my favorite classes to teach. I try to bring in a lot of real world examples, um, fluid mechanics, we have to get through a lot of engineering, science basis type things.

That's um, that can kind of be a little bit tough at the beginning, but by the end of the semester where we get to take the students out and do hydrant flow tests and then fire pump testing, the hands on aspect of, um, the program is still very important. Um, for those students, um, that when they come to campus, the kind of typical college student, that's an important experience for them to have, uh, before they graduate.

And so. Uh, and then in sprinkler design, I always try to bring in new, um, projects for them to work on to design sprinkler systems for, uh, and then I also have a lot of fun with our senior design projects, uh, because we can, we've kind of molded that, um, into projects that become very practical either. You know, some students are really driven in doing some sort of research project, which is fantastic.

And then we also have another. You know, kind of route with our senior design, where they're doing practical application projects, um, and things like that. And so our students, um, from what our, uh, employers mention is that what they think, um, of our graduates is that they are always ready to hit the ground running.

Um, and it's because they do have. A lot of practical experience, um, whether that be in the classroom or maybe even through an internship experience, but they are always ready to kind of just get going. Um, and that they pick up on things, um, really quickly. Uh, and so I, we pride ourselves in that and we pride ourselves that our program is while it's a lot of fun.

Um, while we think it's fun as faculty that, but we might be, you know, a bunch of. Academic dorks. Um, sometimes , but, um, you know, we, we think it's fun and, but at the same time, we, we keep it rigorous because we want the product, um, our graduates, um, to come out to always have that quality that our employers are looking for.

And so we really try to, to balance those types of things, um, within our curriculum. And our graduates just go everywhere. Um, it's really amazing what our graduates have done. And even, uh, just in the, you know, short time I'm in my eighth year at OSU. Um, but in the short time I've been there just seeing where some of those graduates, some of those early graduates, um, that I worked with have gone on to do, um, beyond there, um, some different opportunities that they've had and, and things like that is.

Absolutely. One of the best parts of my job is to see where they go afterwards. Yeah, that's so great. It's it's awesome. I think that the opportunity in the fire and life safety industry is so vast and it's such a great field to get into because of how healthy the job market is. Um, and just the opportunities and, and the chance to have a very meaningful role in, in, uh, the, uh, chance to, to choose where that'll take you and to have options.

I always, I have, uh, sister-in-laws that are in college now. And, you know, they're kind of that thing that we were talking about, knowing what you wanna do when you grow up. And that's a big piece of what I try to tell people. Think about something that'll give you options. Think about something. That'll give you the, the income and the availability to have the lifestyle that you wanna have.

So I think those are all great points about how OSU can help. Uh, and the F PSC program can help somebody have, uh, a lot of opportunity and a chance at a really neat profess. But yeah, exactly. I, I can't stress to our, you know, incoming students or, you know, potential students enough of, first of all, we can't produce enough graduates of what the market demands and that's just, you know, across the board between safety and health or, um, or even fire protection, you know, we just don't, we don't have enough graduates.

Um, no matter how much we try, um, and. You will get a great job. Um, and if you've got that, you know, no pun intended, but that little fire to want to Excel in that career path, um, the opportunities really are endless. Um, Because it's even one of those things, you know, um, oil and gas is a very kind of up and down type industry.

And we've had students before that we're really hoping to go into oil and gas. Uh, maybe they had an internship and then for some reason, whatever, it might be the oil and gas industry. Is not hiring as many students that year, or they may not be hiring any, uh, due to a variety of reasons in the market or, or what have you, but they are able to with our program and our degree easily shift into a different field, um, or kind of a, a parallel field, maybe it might not be an oil and gas, but it might be something similar, um, to be able to still.

Employment. Um, and they can still explore those careers, but then, you know, when the market picks back up, they could always go back and look, um, at that, you know, primary career that they were originally looking at. And so it just gives so much flexibility to our students and to our graduates. Yeah. That's a great point.

That's a great point. I also liked hearing you speak about, you know, kind of. Uh, curriculum evolution, you know, progressing more towards the fire science. I'll say that when I took the PE exam, I felt like there was a huge portion of the fire protection, PE exam over, uh, fire dynamics and fire science. And, you know, uh, we had the course in school, but I still, it wasn't my strong suit when I took the course either.

So, uh, I definitely felt like in preparation for. The FPE exam. I had to really buff up on that knowledge base. But it's interesting to hear you say that you see, uh, growth in that area. Um, and just as where the discipline is trending. Yeah, definitely. Like if you look at, um, the society of fire protection engineers and their kind of core competencies, uh, that is an entire area of competencies, you know, they talk a lot, there's kind of four key points that they talk about and, um, And that is one of those areas, uh, that will continue to be there and continue to grow.

But, and it's not even just that we need FPE that Excel in each of those areas. Um, someone that does a lot of work with fire dynamics and models, we still need somebody that understands, you know, fire alarm and sprinkler systems and passive fire protection and those types of things, because all of those combined are what help provide those facilities, um, with protect.

Yeah, I've always been, uh, had more of a, uh, proclivity for system side of things. Uh, just the fire suppression and fire alarms. I'm sure that's inherent to the, uh, trade that I'm in or the profession that I'm in. But, um, yeah, I don't know. I see some, uh, different schools like the, like the Marylands or the WPIs of the world really, um, leaning in super hard to.

Fire sciences. So I think it's just an interesting, uh, point about it all. Yeah. It, it definitely provides a good balance with all the graduates that come out of the programs is that there is you get variety. And I don't know if that's the right term, but you know, in the graduates of what, um, what their areas of specialty are, which, like I said, when, um, you know, when I worked in Las Vegas, it wasn't.

If we needed something to be modeled, it wasn't necessarily us that did it. We would work with one of the other offices that had experience in that, and that had expertise in that. And so you kind of need all of those pieces to put it together. And so it's, it's actually a pretty good balance between the different programs of, you know, their areas that are really emphasized and, and OSU does focus a lot.

Kind of the practical code based systems, um, as well as kind of getting those pieces and parts of fire behavior and fire dynamics. But, um, but I think it adds that adds to that balance of all the graduates that come out of the schools. Yeah, definitely. I think you're, I think you're right. It's each program has the, you know, a little bit of their specialty and, and that's fine.

And, you know, paired with master's degrees, you could, uh, you know, kind. Mix and match like you have in your career, those different influences and strengths. Um, but yeah, I wanted to ask you, um, just, you know, I know it's kind of like, uh, a strange time for people who are graduating and, um, you know, young professionals looking for jobs right now.

But, uh, it, it appears to me as somebody who is, uh, working for a firm. Is looking to hire a, uh, a couple people in the fire protection department. That it's a good time to find a job, but I just wanted to ask you, um, what kind of advice would you have for somebody who is, you know, looking to be competitive and get a job in this irregular climate that we have right now for, um, young professionals.

Yeah, absolutely. The first of all, I will say that in the, you know, it was a little bit, you know, when everything kind of shut down in 2020, um, in spring, there was a lot of, kind of shifting going on. Um, I know some internships had gotten canceled and whatnot. We still had a really good year of, um, all of our graduates getting hired and things like that.

And I've really seen an uptick in, um, and, and it's probably cuz we're getting ready to get into our fall career fair. , uh, but I've really seen an uptick in the number of companies that are starting to ask and say, we're looking to hire, we're looking to hire. So I, I do feel like there's some things picking up.

Um, what I always recommend to any incoming student, um, is to at least start in and don't be afraid to join an organization. Um, I always kind of recommend, like, try and do something that's associated with your. Um, and then also if there's something you're passionate about, um, don't be afraid to join a different organization, even if it's like a, a sports club or something like that.

I know we've had students that were a part of the, um, like the OSU volleyball club or the, um, I think we even had a wakeboarding club for a while, you know, like all sorts of different clubs, like, you know, pursue a little bit of your passion of what, you know, some of the fun things that you like to do. Uh, but also, um, Pursue the, um, the professional side.

And I, you know, get involved in that, um, be an active member, uh, because especially we really strive with our organizations, whether that's our students, society of fire protection engineers, or the American society of safety professionals, um, we really strive in those organizations that they get to have that professional contact, uh, the professional networking.

And the other thing that I always recommend to students is don't be afraid to kind of put yourself out there. Like don't go to a career fair and not stop at any booth. Um, you and start as a freshman, go there and, and just start talking to employers, you, you need to get used to being able to talk to other professionals.

Um, and even if you go as a freshman, not thinking that you will get any kind of internship, it doesn't hurt. And, and don't, don't be afraid to put yourself out there to. Sign up for an interview or, um, things like that. But you know, in this climate, I think a lot of employers are really gonna be looking for kind of that well rounded engineer.

Um, one of the things that when I was working on my PhD, I did a lot of work in, um, engineering and student learning, um, and those types of things. And one of the things that employers will always want. They don't want just the engineer necessarily anymore. That sits in a cubicle and doesn't have any outside contact.

They are looking for the engineers that can project manage that can interface with clients that can interface with jurisdictions. And so students really have to be able to hone those skills, um, you know, working on teams, uh, critical thinking, um, being able to go and research something yourself instead of automatically asking somebody else what the answer is, uh, you know, spend some time researching things before you go and say, Hey, what's the answer to this question?

Um, so we try to really work with our students in our classes to, to try and hone those skills. And so, um, And the other thing is, is don't, like I said, don't be afraid. You don't necessarily need to be perfect in all of your classes. Um, because sometimes a lot of the interview, if you've made it to an interview, um, your resume is already speaking for you, um, to get you to that interview.

And so at that point, they're gonna wanna know how well do you connect. The other technical staff, um, how well do you communicate, uh, you know, mostly verbally at that point with an interview, uh, most of our students now we are extremely used to, to meetings on zoom or Microsoft teams and being able to interface that way.

Uh, there's a lot of interviews that are happening that way, which is actually, it's been really G the, if you wanna say that, there's a good thing out of this pandemic is that it's actually allowed C. The capability to reach further than they normally would have. Um, and they can, you know, they can set up these virtual interviews first.

And so they could be interviewing from somewhere else in the United States or around the world to do these interviews versus having to fly someone in. And so there may be more opportunity there. So don't be afraid to, to do that. The other thing, um, This is more of a cautionary thing, but just also watch what you put on social media, because once it's out there, um, employers can see that.

And depending on which route you go, especially if you've got, you know, um, a chance to go work with like a, a DOE or a do D type, uh, facility, um, they will look at those types of things. Um, and so you have to think about even your personal Facebook or Instagram page is still. Public, um, in what you do. So, but it's really just being able to communicate and talk with other people.

And, um, also don't be afraid to ask questions. I, uh, that's a great point about, uh, go into the career fair and, and just being able to talk with people and building rapport at the career fair, even when you might not. Ready for an internship. I think that, like you were saying, if you get an, an interview you've already, you've already kind of made the statement that you need to, and it's kind of yours to lose at some point, based on your ability to communicate and express your interest to learn.

I mean, nobody expects, uh, an intern, an intern, or even a new hire. Understand everything. They just really want attitude, the ability to communicate and the intention to learn and grow. So, uh, I think that's a great point. And then also what you're saying about, you know, how a company wants somebody. Who's not just gonna sit in their cube, but somebody who's involved in the community and somebody who wants to collaborate and, and not just.

Waiting for somebody to bring them answers. That's probably one of the biggest ones, you know, have you tried to look for this? Have you, you know, you're responsible for, um, bringing solutions to the table. So I think those are all great points. I, uh, I always like to touch on, you know, the pros and cons. It appears to me that there are some pros, like you were saying from the pandemic, um, about.

You know, having the ability to connect. Um, I think if you were to asked me before the pandemic, if I would've thought that we're working remote full time would be okay. I would say, yeah, it's be fine. Sounds great. But then after doing it and dealing with the, uh, VPN and more teams meeting and, you know, always being on, I don't know, I think that, uh, I'm leaning towards in the office now.

I think that's an interesting point. You make about, uh, how it is kind of sped up the advance in, you know, being able to talk to people about jobs remote and just kind of open up opportunities and extend the reach of the program. So I think that's interesting. I've not heard that before. I know that. Um, yeah, I've heard some accounts of people doing those internships or, I mean, uh, interviews on.

Over teams and whatnot and the signing up and the scheduling of that. Yeah. I mean, last year, the entire career fair was virtual and, um, students had to sign up for, you know, just the time to meet with that initial HR person that may have been normally at the career fair. And, um, and I have to agree with you, uh, remote, uh, that, that could be work really well for some jobs and some things that you do, but in the engineering world, it's.

It's a much better space if you can collaborate in person. Um, and uh, not that you can't do it sometimes remotely. Uh, but I also think, you know, it's, we're a year and a half into this and we are a little bit over the, how many times do we need to get onto a, a zoom or a teams meeting and, um, But that's okay.

Um, we're, we're hopefully coming out of this, you know, right now all of our classes are in person. Um, we're working really hard to make sure that, uh, we, we do the best that we can and within our ability to keep the students, um, healthy and safe. Uh, and we also look at it that, you know, this while we are not in our field, you know, Uh, we are not people that study viruses and whatnot, but this is a real thing that, you know, if you are in safety and health, what are you doing for your company to help protect them?

Uh, and that type of thing, and understanding the different, um, you know, always the new, regular recommendations that are coming out from the CDC and stuff like that. And so it's, the pandemic has definitely added a spin to it. Um, it has actually shown a lot in higher education. And even with our program, the things that we can do virtually, uh, and that, you know, what are some different options that we have from a virtual or online aspect and to reach further, um, you know, our graduate program is offered both, um, on campus and online already.

Uh, but we're exploring options of, you know, what could we do from an undergraduate perspective? Um, online and, and that's the reason why we look at that is, you know, we have some, you know, students that are getting ready to graduate, or maybe, um, there's a student that is really passionate about the fire service.

And so they decide they're gonna go test for a department and they may have to, they may have to have that consideration of leaving a semester early. Um, and we want to make sure they finish their degrees. And so what could we do to help accommodate that? How could we. Um, help those types of professionals or, um, because our degree is so unique, you know, we get individuals that maybe they are career firefighters or they, and they've since moved into like the fire marshal's office and they wanna advance their career through a, um, a higher degree, you know, a bachelor's degree or something like that.

And this is really where some of this is going, like, how could we help service those individuals? Um, In their growth and, and to help continue to grow the field and the expertise in the field. Wow. That's a really interesting point. Yeah. I've had a couple people reach out since starting the podcast and say, you know, uh, from the us and from outside the us and say, Hey, what you know, opportunities are there, uh, for masters and undergraduate programs, uh, more frequent.

Strange enough. It's been master's programs, people reaching out and saying, Hey, what you know, opportunities are there in the us for fire protection, you know, for different roles, people coming from different roles. So looking for how to add a competitive edge or how to learn more in the field. So I think that's an interesting topic of how to accommodate people who wanna get at the program and some of the.

Technical and, um, educational resources that are involved in it. So, yeah, I think that's a, that's a great idea to explore how to provide more with the program. While keeping the integrity of, um, what we're trying to, what we can convey. Yeah. And that's, that's definitely an important piece that you mentioned is that the integrity and the rigor of the program.

Um, and that is something that all of the, our faculty do not take lightly. Um, and so that as we've, you know, explored different things or as we've worked, um, with our joint program, we have a joint program with Southwest it university in China. Unfortunately, those students, they were supposed to come here for their senior year, um, the different cohorts and they haven't been able to travel because of the pandemic and.

um, you know, how do we maintain the integrity and the rigor with those students? Um, still giving them some course offerings so that way they can still graduate, um, as a part of that program that they signed up for, you know, four years ago before a pandemic . Wow. So, so it's, it's been, it's been interesting, but all the faculty are on board to make sure that our program continues to.

Produce the graduates that our employers need, um, and the, to have that rigor and to hopefully instill those skills in them. So that way they can go out in the workforce and be successful, um, in everything that they are doing. Uh, and so. It's important to us, for sure. Yeah. That's really interesting about that program.

I was reading a little bit about it and I heard that you had taken some, some trips as a process of that program over to China. That's extremely fascinating to be, uh, doing something like that. Has that been, uh, uh, a very, uh, different, I imagine experience. Well, I my, my plans for travel, um, have not ever come to fruition at this point to go out there, but we've had several faculty that have gone out there.

Um, they've helped, uh, build. Some labs out there for them to get some hands on exercises and some of the, the lower division courses that they are taking over there. And, um, and they've helped teach some of those classes. Uh, and my plans for travel were going to be either later in 2020 or, um, this time in 2021, but we are.

Unfortunately, not at that point, um, to travel over there. And so everything has been done remotely, but thankfully with technology, we are able to continue to help work with that program and, and to, to help those students, um, succeed. And it's, um, it's a, a lot of these students are a great group of students.

They they've loved learning about it. Um, and it'll be really great to see how they can go. Um, either in China or elsewhere around the world to, to impact, you know, fire and life safety around the world. That's very cool. That's very cool. So I wanted to ask, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but about, um, your involvement in professional societies and, um, you know, what you think about professional societies.

I, I understand that just recently you were. I don't know what the right term is, but, uh, announced as, uh, being a fellow of SF P, which is a, which is a big deal. So I thought that was really. But yeah, I'd love to hear more about, uh, yeah. So first of all, I have been a part of S F P E. So the society, fire protection engineers ever since I was a student at OSU.

Um, and part of that was, you know, like I said, joining an organization that you're interested in as a part of your career and. And then I joined the local chapter when I was in Las Vegas. And, um, when I moved back here, I started overseeing the, um, student chapter and I got more and more involved in the international organization.

And I can't describe enough how much being a part of your professional organization. And again, stepping outside that comfort zone sometimes of. You know, taking on a little bit of a volunteer role. Um, I, I sit on, well, right now, I'm, I'm finishing up my second term on the, um, as the chair of the higher education subcommittee, which is underneath the professional qualifications group.

And. First of all the people that you get to meet from all across the United States and the world, sit on that committee. Um, we talk about, you know, what are the academic standards? What are the expectations? What are the topics that, um, we look at for a, um, a model curriculum of a fire protection engineering program.

And it also gives you a chance to advocate. Um, I get to advocate for OSU and for our students, um, within that organization, which is fantastic. Um, and because of my connections there, I was then appointed as one of the, the SFP foundations, uh, on their board of governors, which that organization, which is a little bit separate from the SFP organization, but that organiz.

Is all about what can we do to continue to grow in research, um, student scholarships, student grants, um, and looking at it from that perspective of the growth of that. Um, and, and then yes, recently I was, um, nominated and then my name was submitted to become a fellow member in the organiz. Which according to some of my peers, that means that I'm now old.

Uh, but , um, , uh, but that's okay. Um, it, it was something I knew I wanted to strive for at some point. Um, and I was, when I found out about it, I was a little bit taken aback. Um, and that's because. There's certain qualifications that you need to have. They want you to be, what's considered a professional member for a certain amount of time, and they want you to contribute to the society in certain ways.

And, and in probably in part of, uh, you know, living through this pandemic, it was just definitely not on my mind. So it was a, it was a very pleasant surprise during the summer when I found out. Um, and I take a lot of pride in it. Um, there's only a certain percentage of the membership that can be fellows at any given time.

And, um, I look at it as a way to, to show to others, the accomplishments that you can have, um, from being from, you know, Oklahoma state university, or maybe being female in the industry, that you can really do a lot of great things, um, and that professional organization can help you. Do some of those things, um, by just taking, you know, little roles, don't say yes to everything, but you know, do some little roles volunteer and give back to the society, um, that can help you professionally from a network perspective.

Um, and things like that. You know? So, I mean, it's a great networking opportunity, um, that, between that and our alumni network, uh, I, I just think you can't beat it on your growth professionally. that's awesome. Yeah, it's less than less than 8% of the members are, have the, are able to be a fellow. So that's a big deal.

I always get excited anytime. I see, uh, one of my professors or one of my, um, Uh, the, the students that I graduated with, um, and I get to see him in, uh, yeah, a PR release in the industry. Like I was excited for your fellow announcement. And then I saw, uh, Brian was in Brian Hoskins was, uh, in the S F P prep program.

And he was helping teach the segment on human factors or, or, you know, egress portions of it. So I don't know, I always enjoy. Seeing, uh, seeing people in the okay. State F PST program. Do good. Yeah. It's important. Well, I wanted to ask about your research, but I think we've, I think we've run out of time here.

Maybe we'll have to save that for. Your next episode of fire code tech, if that ever happens, but I wanted to, yeah, just, I know you've been involved in some interesting research, but I also want to be mindful of your time. I'm sure you got a busy day. Well, I can, you know, I can touch on it real briefly and we can always, um, circle back to it at some point.

Uh, my research is definitely more on the practical side. Um, one of the big things that I. Um, working on, um, is a long term corrosion, um, experiment, um, and research within, um, automatic sprinkler systems. And that could be a variety of, uh, wet systems and dry systems using nitrogen, not using nitrogen, the different types of pipe materials.

Um, and we are just monitoring that over time and doing the appropriate inspection testing, and maintenance of those systems that we have installed. And, um, It's a bit like watching paint dry, you know? Right. You can't, um, you can't, um, Uh, force it to happen too soon because we really wanted to look at the, the impact of, um, the inspection testing and maintenance of those systems as well.

Uh, but I know it's very relevant in the sprinkler industry of trying to help solve those problems, you know, increase the longevity of systems. So that's really one area that I look at. Um, I also do a lot of different things with codes and standards, uh, and the application of those, um, and the relevance.

And then I, I also, mostly because of my PhD research, I do a lot of things in, um, student learning, uh, in engineering fields as well as women in stem. Awesome. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. I have a big interest in that. That piping is such a big, even though I know it's hard and not a lot of action, but the, I it's, what I deal with so frequently is, you know, how long can the piping sustain its integrity?

You know, different systems, wet and dry systems and how that affects system lifespan. So I definitely, uh, think that's a very interesting field, but anyways, I just wanna thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Virginia. It's been an absolute pleasure and yeah. Thanks again. Well, I appreciate you having me on and, and of course, uh, anytime, um, we can, we can help advocate for the profession we're here for it.

Awesome. Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast, or by no means a professional consultation or a code zone standards, interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved. Fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.