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Nov 9, 2020

Kelsey Longmoore is a fire and life safety professional with over a 5 years of experience in code enforcement. In this episode of Fire Code Tech, we discuss model building codes and standards and how they work in Canada. Kelsey also shares the origin story of the Kilo Lima Code Community.

Informal introduction: 0:00
Tell me about your origin in life safety and engineering? 7:48
Did your origin and the difficulties in learning the building code play a part in your foundation of Kilo Lima? 8:10
Would you speak about being a certified professional and your other certifications? 18:12
How do the model building codes and standards work in Canada? 21:10
Would you speak more on your role at Celerity? 27:38
What is Kilo Lima Code Community (KLCC) for those who don't know? 31:51
How do people reach out and contact you about participating in KLCC? 40:51
What do you see as a trend in the industry? 48:38



Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 16 of fire code tech with Kelsey Longmore. Kelsey is a building code and life safety professional with over a decade of experience in code enforcement and more recently experienced as a consultant in fire and life safety. I was really interested to speak with Kelsey about how codes and standards work outside of the us.

More specifically in Canada, where Kelsey has had all of her experience. Kelsey is the co-founder of the Kelo Lima code community. Kelsey breaks down the origin story of Kelo Lima code community. In the episode, we talk about the different facets of Kela Lima code community and Kelsey's career. We get into the blog posts and.

The importance of being able to have forums online for fire and land safety. In addition, Kelsey talks about the new courses that she's launched about the Canadian model codes that can be Right now, if you're curious about how model building codes work in Canada and. Where you can go to learn more about this topic.

I think you're gonna really like this episode, don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. If you would like to talk to me about fire protection, life safety, or if you have an idea for a topic. Or an interesting guest, you can drop me a

I wanted to try to give the interview some context and perspective. So I started the recording before we actually got into the interview. Check out the show notes. If you want to skip the informal, beginning to the podcast and skip straight to the questions. Uh, yeah, just, it's interesting for me kind of straddling this line between, of course I want to.

You know, uh, in interesting technical information out of people and, you know, we kind of explore these topics that, uh, are not as well recorded or, you know, don't have as much, uh, online presence or, you know, uh, information online. But then also, I don't wanna be just like some very dry interview that is just, people are answering and then stopping and, and waiting for me to, you know, proceed with the next question.

Of course, sometimes it is just time to go to the next question, but yeah, I don't know. I don't want it to feel like forced, like people feel trapped that they have to just answer the question and stick to the question and be done with it, you know? Yeah. Cause I think there's a lot of interesting information in between those spaces.

No, I, uh, I, I can talk loud and ramble, so , we'll, we'll see how it goes, but I'm, I'm completely the same. I'm more, um, I'm not very formal. I'm formal when I need to be, but, but a lot of times I, I just really value the real conversations. So. Um, mm-hmm well that's well, that's good. You know, I, I think that in my experience, the Ramblers, as long as they also have the ability to hear what you're saying to 'em are the best kind of people to have on podcasts.

You just need to siphon through, through the information bit more. But yeah, there's some people that, you know, it seems like there's a fountain erupting out of them. Then it's like a torrent of information that just has a will of its. And, and that's definitely an interesting type of guest, but , it also is, uh, it's hard because you're like, uh, I want to, there's kind of a theme here.

Of course. the theme. The theme is you. So you can do, you can talk about what you like, but yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah. I'm working on being more, more concise. My one, my one son. Pretty similar. And so we have a book called my mouth is a volcano. So I'm working on it with him to to really hone in and get, get things more concise.

It's it's hard though, when you're really excited about something you just, um, like with ke Lima, I just can talk and talk and talk and talk. And so. Yeah, I feel you. I have to meter myself when I speak with other people who ask and, you know, like people will ask you sometimes like, sometimes people will ask you, like, how are you doing?

And they don't really want to hear like the whole spiel. Sometimes people will also ask how the podcast's going. And I have to tell myself they don't always really want to know, you know, like the delude of information that's coming for anybody who asked me about it. Yeah. And so , I know, I understand. Yeah.

I usually, when I've been meeting with people, um, to kind of see what they think about Kela Lim or get them involved, um, you know, I always start with, do you really only have half an hour and kinda put it out there before that a lot of times, um, like a Kelsey five minutes, isn't really five minutes. It, it tends to go longer.

So , I feel that, I feel that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so excited about having you on. I felt like. I feel, uh, I, I don't know if this is strange to say, but like a kindred spirit in what you're doing at, at Kelo limo. And so I was just really excited and I feel like, you know, not that this has any, you know, says anything about me, but I just was really excited.

Cause I feel like I found you really early in what you launched and also you launched ke Lima. Like probably down to like days off of when I started fire code tech. So yeah. So yeah, I felt like a strange, I was like, whoa, this is neat that you're entering this kind of publicly open space at the same time that, you know, I'm kind of throwing myself into the, into the process as well.

Yeah. And it's. , it has been a weird time because like, you know, thoughts of this were bring before. And then around that time, like, I think it was early April when we finally, you know, I finally got it up there. It's when the world started going crazy with the pandemic. So it's, you know, is this really a good time to take on something new, but it's, um, it's kind of the best time to really realize that you have something you wanna do and, and just go for it.

So, yeah, and I think I saw. My episode 23 for you. So I've recorded a, uh, like 23 episodes. Wow. Some, some episodes, uh, due to like, uh, audio quality or maybe like the first couple episodes I, I, uh, recorded, you know, their practice and, and obviously I had getting my reps in with getting guests and just finding my.

Ability to interview people and, you know, understanding the technology that I'm using. So there's a couple duds in there and some of them I'll be able to salvage maybe like two or three, but yeah, I have, um, this will, this is probably pretty close to, um, the 20th full. I think you. I could look, I have the folder on this laptop, but yeah, I think you're number 20 and maybe yeah, it's been awesome.

It's been so much fun. Yeah. All the people I've gotten to speak with and I feel like it's, uh, been just a huge learning experience for me and just propelling me forward for my ability to just talk with people and also. My, you know, fire protection and life safety knowledge. I've just getting to have the.

Fortune to be able to pick people's brains. So it's been just awesome. I've loved it. I absolutely loved it. I just wanna say thanks again for coming on. And I just wanted to get started with talking about a little bit about your origin and, um, life safety and engineering, and yeah, I'd love to hear about how you found your.

Into fire and life safety and yeah, a little bit about your background, um, right on. So, yes, again, thanks for having me. This is very, very excited. I never would've thought I'd be recording a podcast, but here we are. Uh, so I found fire, um, protection, life safety, probably different than, than a lot of people in the field.

So I, you know, I went into engineering as any. Um, 17, 18 year old, probably not really knowing what it was all about, but I was good at math and science. So, um, it's what I started with. I loved kind of the challenge and pro problem solving side of it. So I kept with it. I actually studied environmental systems engineering.

Um, so not like the building code is never what I thought I would end up in, um, shortly after. After graduating, um, did a bit of traveling and then came back, um, and got on with the city. Um, so the municipality where I lived in some roadways in a roadways position, um, And then, you know, after a while, it just, it wasn't challenging.

And there was an opening in the building branch. Um, at that point I had probably never really looked at the building code. Um so it was a pretty steep learning curve. Um, once I got there, but, um, I loved it. I loved the challenge of learning the code and reviewing drawings and, you know, seeing, seeing all the new stuff going on in the city and, um, and kind of working with all the groups involved in it.

So it was, yeah, it was, it was good. So that's kind of how by chance I happened, I happened to fall into the building code and, and here we are starting. A website for, for building code knowledge. So that's interesting. That's very interesting. So does that, does that origin in not knowing about the building code and, and the steep learning curve, do you think that, uh, that played a role into, into what you're, you know, trying to do now for ke Lima and that struggle.

To find your way to that knowledge. Did that play a part? Yeah, so it definitely, it definitely led me to Kela Lima, so where I I'm from Saskatchewan. So it's kind of in the prairies, in the middle of Canada. Um, and you know, as a, a municipality and a court code enforcer there, um, It was a pretty, um, it's a, it was a bit behind there and a bit, um, the culture was kind of anti, anti compliance.

Should I say? So when I started, um, You know, I was new to it and a lot of I'd be reviewing plans and a lot of the code requirements I was enforcing, um, just hadn't been enforced or done. I understand what you're saying too about, you know, code enforcement and how it's, it's a struggle because you get into these situations in which.

You know, there's a lot of pressures from different, um, the different people and different stakeholders for, you know, code enforcers, you know, it's not just, Hey, enforce this to the letter of the law and you're done. And so I think that's really interesting. I'd love to keep hearing you describe that a little bit.

So yeah, so Kela Lima. So I like from Saskatchewan and, and that's always learning the code actually within, I mean, I had started. Not really knowing anything about the building code. And then with within nine months I had written my building officials exams, um, and there were some changes in the branch and I was, you know, I was the lead and only actually plan reviewer, um, for for kind of complex buildings there.

And so it, it was really challenging. There was, um, kind of this perception that, um, you know, I was the expert when really, um, I had just learned, but. There. Yeah. Like in Canada, there seems to be a lot of, um, code consultants and knowledge, um, kind of in the Toronto area, there's a lot of firms. And then again, in Vancouver and surrounding areas.

Um, so when I had started at is an HJ, um, In Saskatchewan, I didn't even know that code consulting was a thing. Um, not a lot of the projects I worked on there had someone, um, specifically doing the code review. And so, yeah, really, it was just, it was. A struggle to find good information on building code, to know where to find it, to just have conversations.

Like I had, I had some context in other cities in Saskatchewan or, um, kind of the province building standards there, but it was, it just, it wasn't. An easy process. And now being where I am knowing that there is a lot of companies, there is, um, you know, some resources tucked on tucked away on the internet.

Like, you know, if I knew then what I knew now of what was available, it just things would've gone so much more smoothly. And I, I don't want that to, you know, I don't want that to be a struggle for anyone else cuz it shouldn't be, um, the building. It's minimum requirements and it should just be, it should be a lot easier, um, to have these conversations and find good information.

So, yeah, I guess my background with the municipality is definitely. Um, the main reason for Kelo Lima. Yeah. That's fascinating. I agree. A hundred percent. I worked for a fire suppression contractor right outta college. And, you know, I was working in the middle of the United States on small, like very small jobs to, to medium size jobs, you know, like.

Huge jobs. And so, you know, if you're working in middle America and you're working in small jurisdictions and you are, you know, a lot of times these jobs don't have the budget to have, um, dedicated life safety or fire protection consulting or engineering. So you may not even see, uh, dedicated construction documents that are.

You know, designed to these fire protection and life safety sheets in the set. So yeah, I understand what you're saying, how I could see how you could spend a significant portion of your career and, you know, not deal with one of these, uh, monolithic jobs that, you know, absolutely needs a dedicat. Uh, fire protection and life safety engineer.

And, and so how that could, uh, just that it not having that exposure could limit the knowledge of what even the scope of the role is because, uh, yeah, like I said, there would be times where there would be maybe a couple fire protection notes on a drawing mm-hmm and that, that would be all I would see.

And maybe some of it was. And so, yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I resonate with that for sure. About not having the information and just. Not just not knowing the, you know, it's and you mentioned some places in Canada. And I loved hearing that because for me, it's like, I'm thinking of, of course Oklahoma is not a, a Boston or New York city or a, you know, Los Angeles or Chicago.

It's, we're not these, it's not the same, of course, in these big towns, it's, it's a different, uh, way to do business, but yeah. Yeah. And. It's really, I guess. And because I, I, you know, worked as a building, we call them building officials in Saskatchewan, but I've just seen like all these smaller jurisdictions and municipalities, like they're all having the same challenges of, you know, getting, getting education for their, their building officials, keeping them up to date.

Um, Putting processes in place to make sure they have a good plan review process. And all these jurisdic jurisdictions are just struggling with the same things. Um, and to me, it's just like, there, there has to be a better way. It's a national code. Um, like how do we get things in place so that, you know, the it's not so hard for the municipality to, to enforce.

It's not so hard for, you know, designers to. The building code knowledge, they need to, to design safe buildings. Like the it's the end goal is safe building. So it's how do we make the entire process easier for everyone? Um, that's a wonderful point. You're, that's a wonderful point. I love how you articulated that.

Yeah. The end goal is safe buildings. How do we grease the wheels for everybody involved for contractors, for authorities having jurisdiction for consultants? You know, how do we level the playing field and make this, uh, a more approachable process to end up at safer buildings? So, yeah, I completely agree with you.

So, um, yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about, you mentioned some of your, uh, certifications and, or, um, just some of your exams you've sat for. I always love to ask people, um, when they come on the show that they have a certification exam that maybe I'm aware of, but. Exactly sure of what it is. I, I like to ask people, um, to tell me about their certifications, cuz I'm endlessly, uh, fascinated by, um, qualifications and uh, professional certifications.

I'm sure that's not a. Cool thing to say about David . I mean, different, different strokes for different folks. Um, so I, yeah, I guess I have, I mentioned my building officials license. Um, so it's called something different across different provinces. Um, but so essentially our, our Canadian code is broken up into parts.

Um, there's kind of a smaller, simpler part for, um, Smaller buildings or certain occupancies. And then, um, what we call part three for more complex buildings, um, specific occupancies that, you know, need more professional design. So the exams are based on, there's kind of three different classes of exams. Um, and then, so once you get your class three, um, license, you, you can review and inspect, um, all buildings in the code.

So I worked through the various exams for that. when I was with, um, with the city to be able to, um, be a building official and work on behalf of the city for that. So that's, um, what kind of, what the building officials, um, Exams are all about they're based on, based on the building code, obviously. And then the other, my more recent designation I got, it's called, um, a certified professional.

So in British Columbia here, we have, uh, the certified professional program. And so it's, I guess it's an alternative to the conventional building permit process. Um, so it's an optional way of doing, of doing the building. Permit application. Um, and it's adopted in some jurisdictions in the province. So it's actually been in the city of Vancouver since the eighties.

Um, and most major projects in the city of Vancouver now will go through this process. So the company I work with, um, I'm, I'm not in Vancouver, I'm more in interior, BC, but a lot of our work is through this program. So essentially what it is, it's. It's a course, um, a lot of work and then, um, two full day exams to be able to practice as, as a certified professional.

But with that designation, you're essentially a representative of. Of the city. So you're, you're involved in projects right from the beginning and you're doing kind of the city, um, like the full city review for the building code throughout the process. Um, and then, uh, the benefit of that is that, um, permits go through, can go through a lot faster because, um, the city, you know, it's this level of trust where the city knows you have the knowledge to be able to.

Um, to do that review and, and make sure that happens. And so there's a lot less oversight from the building department at the city throughout that. I'm pretty excited about, um, having passed that it was, it was pretty tough and got a bit pushed back because of COVID. But, um, finished that up I guess a month and a half ago now.

So, wow. That's interesting. That sounds like a pretty useful certification. If you can, you know, bypass certain points of, uh, permit application, or basically streamline certain, um, instances of the permitting process. . Yeah, I don't, it sounds interesting. I, I don't think I fully understand like how, um, so for a second, I was thinking that you guys were somehow, uh, uh, in an arm of the, uh, the city or some something of that nature, but yeah, I don't think I fully understand that, but that sounds really, really.

Yeah. Yeah. It's essentially just, if you have, you know, if a project has a certified professional, it's just because in, I mean, everywhere is different back when I was in Saskatche when a permit a permit review, time of two months was atrocious. Um, and industry was not happy, but it, whereas in Vancouver, like it's months and months, um, to go through kind of the building review process, whereas when you have this certified professional, um, like.

You know, we're, we're saying that we are, we're bringing these permit drawings into the city and they are code compliant. Um, so because of that, there's a lot less oversight by the city and things go a lot quicker. Um, so it is, it is kind of like an arm of the city, like we're separate. Um, but we're really representing them and acting on behalf of them for.

For the building code compliance. So I liked hearing you speak a little bit about how the codes and standards or the model building codes, uh, work in Canada. I, one of the things that I have such trouble finding information about, you know, I, I feel like it should be pretty straightforward, right? You, I feel like it should be easy Google to say, how does the model building codes work in Canada, but, uh, a quick review.

Of, uh, what you can initially find on the internet, uh, proves that that's a, not a very easy thing to do. even if you go read some articles and scholarly journal journals, you probably still don't know how to you design a building or perform a life safety or code review for Canada. So, yeah, I just, uh, I would love to hear about.

Um, how the model building codes in Canada work and you know, how codes and standards work in Canada as a code nerd, I would love to hear about, you know, how does this process work in other countries? Because I feel like it was so hard to learn how it works in the us. And I feel like there's an abundance of, uh, you know, or not an, I don't know if I'd say abundance, but just there.

There's a lot of people in there's a fair amount of resources, but yeah. Um, yeah. So in Canada, I guess we have, um, there's five national model code, so there's the building code, fire code, plumbing code, the energy code, um, and the farm building code, which has some relaxations for farm buildings, but essentially.

It's a it's committees, um, who kind of work on changes to the codes, um, from across Canada and they develop, um, and then, and then national codes are published. Um, Every, I think every five years now is the, is the intent. Um, and then, so, so there's a national code, but a jurisdiction has to, has to adopt it.

So what'll happen is that each province either adopts the, the national building code with, um, some amendments. So in Saskatchewan, we worked off of the national building code and a couple pages of amendments that, um, We're, you know, kind of address the regional needs and then other provinces, um, will kind of take the national code and make a lot more changes to it in additions to suit their needs.

And then they're actually published as provincial code. So when I worked in Saskatchewan, I worked off of the national code with a few amendments. And now here in British Columbia, we have our own British Columbia building code. So it's, um, the. Iteration to the provincial code, um, is very similar to the national code.

And I think actually a lot of the provinces are working towards more streamlining streamlining that. So it isn't, you know, there isn't so much difference from province to province. And then the other, the other weird thing is that the city of Vancouver, um, they, they have their own code. So, so they don't use the British Columbia building code.

They have, um, The Vancouver building bylaw, which they take, they take the code, but then also kind of their city bylaw requirements and they publish their own specific building code. So there is, there's a national code and then each province kind of takes it in and, uh, changes what they need to, and then it's adopted as a province other than Vancouver, which has its own city code.

So. Does that answer it? Yeah, definitely. and so, I mean, you know, intuitive that all makes, you know, great sense and intuitively that all makes, uh, complete sense. And, you know, in the us it's much the same with, you know, the international building code. Everybody adopts some version, you know, whether that's 2015, 2013, and then there's.

Regional, um, amendments or mm-hmm, different, uh, statutes that are appended to these model building codes. And then, like you mentioned, at the end, of course, there are exceptional cases in large cities, like, uh, Boston or. Or I don't know about, I don't know why I said Boston, but, uh, Chicago, definitely New York and California all have like their own version of the building code.

Mm-hmm like, it's not that it's the California building code. It's not that international building code. And, and there are, uh, definitely a lot of differences for some of these big, um, larger population mm-hmm cities or states. but yeah, that's interesting. So I, yeah, I wanted to ask, so does the model building codes for Canada?

Do they use NFPA 13 or how do you guys establish, uh, sprinkler criteria or fire alarm criteria? Yeah, they do the sprinklers. We use NFP 13, um, or R D depending on the building, um, for sprinklers, um, NFP 14 for stand pipes. Um, but for our, our alarm standards are Canadian standards, so, um, oh, what is it? 72. Is that the mm-hmm yeah, so we don't use 72.

Um, it's um, Some U can U L C S I dunno, cut that out. Cause I'd have to go back and take that's fine. Specific standard. Um, but, but yeah, we have, um, Canadian standards for our alarm. Interesting. Our alarm design and verification and yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I like to hear that. I'm sure some technologist out there would've, uh, been shaking his phone and screaming if, uh, no.

Yeah. A question for that. How do we know what, uh, you know, what, what to do for the sprinklers or fire alarms? So cool. Um, so yeah, so I just wanted to, uh, touch a little bit more about you talked. Your, um, role as a authority, having jurisdiction a lot. I just wanted to, um, get a little bit more information about your role now at Celerity and kind of what your role is and what you're doing now to give people a picture of your experience.

Yeah. So I've been, um, I've been a co consultant with Celerity for about a year now. Um, so typically we, I, I typically work with architects, um, and engineers on working through their building code review throughout the, throughout their design. So, you know, focusing on the nitty gritty details so that they, they don't have to know all.

The specifics of the code and they can focus more on their design. So we'll work with them and do kind of reviews like I would do at the city. Um, but kind of in a more helpful way than, than a city has time for. And, and from the beginning. So really when they get to their, their permit application or time to submit to the city, they don't have the big surprises of a code, something in the code they miss that really, really affects their design.

So. That's what I'm doing now. I actually, um, I love my celebrity team, but I've actually decided to take a big step back, um, starting, uh, right in it way actually to, to really focus on Helo, Lima. Um, so I'm still, I'm still supporting them a bit. Um, but you know, there's so much potential, um, and opportunity with.

My dreams are for ke Lima. So, and it's, it's been hard to, um, you know, do it on the side. So I'm really, I'm just taking a risk and jumping into it. So, you know, I'm kind of weaning out my, my code consulting role and focusing more on, on Kema here. Wow. That's fascinating. I'm. That's really incredible that you're, you know, taking the, the bold step into, you know, full commitment into being a entrepreneur and man, that's awesome.

I'm so excited for you. I know that you just got started with it, but I think that's a, I think you're making the right decision. And not that you asked for my opinion, but well, thank you. I think that you're making the right decision and, um, and I'm glad that you. You know, doubling down on your investment and your belief and what you're doing is the right thing and something you believe in.

So, yeah, I'm super excited to hear about that. That's that's cool. Yeah, it is. It's a time it's really, you know, it's just, it's a good time for me to try it. We, we moved, um, actually just this January, so. We were on Saskatchewan moved to British Columbia. So we, we sold our house and right now, um, well we're kind of settling in, we're just renting.

So, um, you know, it's, it might not be the best financial decision to to, uh, you know, to step away from a, a paid job for one that's not paid yet, but it. You know, this is kind of the only time that, um, you know, I don't have a mortgage to focus on, I mean, rent obviously, but it's, um, we just kind of have that safety net right now.

And, and to me, it's, um, I'm so passionate about it right now that, um, You know, I'm just going for it. Yeah. So for the people who haven't already paused this and Googled it yet, or Googled it while they're listening, where's Saskatchewan no, but that's funny. I like that you went there. Where's Saskatchewan is no, I was gonna say, what is Kema code community and tell the listeners about okay.

Um, what it is and what you're doing. Yeah, where do you wanna go with it? Okay. So it, um, it's a lot of things it's kind of, , it's my brain child kind of put into a website, so, you know, I could kind of break it down into four, four main parts. Um, the blog, the four, um, what I call the Wiki, um, and then the school.

So, so the blog is, um, it's made up of. Um, different different code users across different. Um, disciplines in the country. Um, and we, we put out weekly blogs. So, you know, I always thought I love, I love to talk and I love the building code and I thought it'd be great to run a building code blog. Um, and I quickly realized that I can talk at phenomenal speeds by getting those ideas down onto paper into a concise way.

Is, uh, not my strong suit. So, um, yeah, I got, I got a group of people together and we do weekly blogs, um, and they range from kind of general code information to technical posts on specific items. Um, and they're really meant to be kind of thought provoking and helpful conversation starters and really. um, you know, people don't know what they don't know.

Um, so one of our recent articles was on kind of a new standard in the national codes. That's required where I know from experience a lot of, you know, it's not being enforced because the. The jurisdictional knowledge isn't there and the industry knowledge isn't there. So really just get, um, information out in kind of a quick, quick read format.

Um, so we've had the blog going for five months now, which is crazy. Um, and it's starting to gain some traction. Um, we actually had. Big news at Ken limo was NFPA actually tweeted, um, one of our articles on podcasts, uh, last week, I think, or a couple weeks ago, which was, which was super cool. So the blog is made up, um, of different contributors across, across the country.

Um, The other thing, uh, we have right now on the site with Olima is, is the forum. So we we've titled it. Good questions cuz to me there's just so many questions. Uh, so the forum, uh, which on the site we call good questions, um, is. It's I take questions submitted to the site are ones I've had myself and I post them.

And it's really a platform for, uh, these items where things are a bit gray or there's various different interpretations, or it's not quite worded. Good that, you know, what does that really mean? And a, and a place online for people to really have those conversations and see how other people are applying it.

Um, so we, we do have some users I can see I can see from the site, people are going to it, but we're, we don't quite have an engaged audience yet. Um, For that. I think, you know, it's kind of the fear of answering something wrong or, you know, asking a silly question. So I'm really trying to break that down with that part of the site and just really start having these.

These code chats, um, across different companies and different user groups. So that's the, the forum part of it. Um, yeah, no, it does. And that's all great. And I totally agree that, you know, there's so many parts of the code that's ambiguous and it's just, you get into spots that are, you know, there's an infinite.

Of ways to construct a building. So mm-hmm, , there's just so many different little nooks and crannies of the building code. You know, you can't and always tell a story of how thankful I am for online forums and discussion boards, because I, I can't tell you how many times I've spent hours trying to find something in the code or trying to find a specific use case for some piece of fire protection or life safety technology, and just toiled over it for half a day.

And then, you know, I'll find some obscure forum from 2007 mm-hmm and where a guy will describe the exact thing that I'm looking for. You know, I, I had this one project I was working on and the interior designer wanted to. Wanted to use a specific open grid type ceiling. And they wanted to know, is that a obstruction to the sprinkler's discharge?

And so I was, you know, it wasn't, they didn't use the term open grid ceiling, but it was this baffle sort of thing. Anyways, all this to say strange ceiling, strange use case mm-hmm , uh, you know, it ends up being some forum from 2007, helps me out and gets me out of a bind. Tells me. No, it's not an obstruction if you follow these construction guidelines.

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So yeah, I think there's a great value in these places for the community to band together and to share resources and to, you know, answer these questions that are just burying people, um, and making it, not able to provide, you know, uh, safe buildings. Mm-hmm and I, like, I know from working, you know, working with the municipality, um, To being a co consultant.

Now, like these conversations happen in pockets, like multiple times a day everywhere. And so it's, it's crazy to me that, you know, there isn't something, I mean, there is, you know, certain building officials associations will have, um, maybe a forum or a big long email chain, but there's nothing right now set.

Um, kind of nationally to, to have these conversations. So that's what I'm trying to build there and, and really linking it to, um, you know, you can do great things with the website now where, you know, you tag it to specific hold articles. So it's, you know, in the future, if someone is kind of looking at that, not sure.

Not sure how to read it. They can come to ke Lima and click the code article and it'll pull up if you know, there's ever been a conversation about that or what other people think. So it's, um, there's, you know, it's just, it's slowly getting started that part of it, but, um, it's gonna be a really awesome tool once.

Um, we build our kind of build our engagement there and people start contributing, um, and getting involved. So it's gonna be pretty. Definitely. Yeah. And I forgot to mention, yeah, I appreciate the, I was super excited for you guys too. When I saw N FPA, uh, share the post, I was, you know, as far as fire protection goes, I think it's like N F, P and S F P E are pretty much the two biggest, uh, associations and fire protection are fire and life safety.

That I'm aware of. So I was pretty excited about that post and also pretty excited that fire code tech was on the podcast post. Yeah. From Jim burns. Yeah. Jim, I think I can't, I can't remember if I think Jim invited me first on LinkedIn or something and maybe he's how I found you. I forget he had, uh, liked something or was engaged with something and then.

I think I was looking at his profile and then I, and then I found you and I was like, whoa, this here's this kilo Lima thing. And I think you had like, Less than 30 followers on Kema. And I was like, man, I'm getting in at the ground floor of this. So yeah. Yeah, Jennifer. I was so I was so happy that that was tweeted.

Yeah. So Jim wrote, Jim wrote that podcast article. Um, so he is, um, I worked with Jim at, um, back in Saskatchewan and he's a fire inspector, but also, um, A building code guru. And he, you know, it was really him who at the beginnings, like we had kind of talked about a blog and, and so he's been, um, you know, really our number one supporter.

So I couldn't be happier that, you know, he wrote that article and an FPA tweeted it and yeah. So he's been, he's been spreading the word, he'll go, he'll go to sites and kind of put. Leave a, leave a comment or ask a question and just let people know about Kela Lima. So he's, he's great. that's awesome. So for, for people out there who are maybe for my interest and for, uh, other people's interests also, so how do you find these.

Great professionals to, you know, that are involved with Kela Lima. And then also as a secondary question to that, uh, if people want to get involved and write an article for Kela Lima, where, how do they find you? How do they reach out and talk to you about it? Yeah, a lot of the, I guess a lot of the current contributors are people who I have, um, you know, worked with personally or work with now.

Um, and then. and then a couple are, um, I guess one main one, um, Jerry with code next, um, early, you know, early, when I was starting this, I was, you know, we're heavily I'm, I'm the most Western province and sketch ones in the middle. And so I really, I really needed some Eastern input. Um, And from my Google search of code consulting companies in Toronto, um, code nexts really stood out at me.

Um, they seemed to really kind of value the same things and they had this cute little video on their website about how to work with them. Um, I shouldn't say cute, um, interesting little video on video and there sort of how to work with them, but they seem very Jerry probably wouldn't like the word cute.

Um, they just seem very, very approachable. So I reached out, I reached out to code next, um, and. You know, this, this was early, this was probably back in like March. Um, and I, you know, I didn't, I didn't even have a website then I just had all these crazy ideas in my head. And, you know, I rambled for probably like an hour about my vision and what I think it could be.

And, you know, by the end of that meeting, he was, he was in and super supportive and, and saw the value in it. So, um, and then from there, you know, he recommended someone from another company. Out east too. Um, who's you know, who joined the team as well? Um, one of our, one of our newest villagers who hasn't done any, um, and also don't know if I mentioned I called them villagers, uh, cause it takes a village to run a blog.

Um, But he is an architect who just inquired through the site and, and loved the vision of knowledge sharing. So, um, if people are interested, we have, it's actually one of our drop down options, um, on our contact us page is that, you know, I think I've got what it takes to be a villager. Um, or I wanna share a guest post cuz that's.

We're very open to that. That's what we want. We think that, you know, the different, everyone has a unique perspective and they have, um, their niche and what they know a lot about. And we wanna be kind of a hub and a platform to really get that information out. Cuz it. It's hard. If you're, if you're very specific about what, you know, you don't, you know, it's hard to write a blog for, um, for one specific thing, but at Kela Lima, we want, um, we wanna kind of find those gems and share them with everybody.

So, um, yeah, we find, we find contributors in various ways. Um, I'm not, I'm not shy about just reaching out to people. To tell them about Keila, Lima. Um, so that's been, that's been a lot of it just kind of reaching out. Um, sometimes people say, no, I'm too busy, but sometimes they get it and they wanna be a part of it.

So that's fascinating. Yeah. I see, uh, a lot of similarities and you know, that fire code tech has been a similar scenario for me and, you know, people. Fire protection is very tight knit and people understand, you know, if you are trying to do something good for the community, and generally if you reach out and explain to people, you know what you're trying to do, and it is a, a positive force for, uh, fire protection, life safety, they get it, and people are excited to be involved.

Mm-hmm so very cool. Well, uh, yeah, I just wanted to, so what do you see as a, as the future of keel Lima? Or where do you want to go next? I know you've talked to me before about, um, that you'd like to put on some classes or, uh, develop the community in that way. Yeah. Yeah. So that's something we're, um, we're launching in September here.

So I'm personally working. Um, I guess my expertise is. The, the code, like the code requirements. Um, so I'm putting together a course, an online course for, um, what it's called part three of the building code. Um, so it's part three is kind of focused on the fire protection, life safety, um, and accessibility is lumped in their requirements.

And so putting that together, um, and just breaking it down. Digestible pieces that, um, people can work through at their own pace, um, and provide cheat sheets and kind of, kind of the way that, um, I think a lot of people like to learn, um, right now, I mean, when I took my first part three course, it was, it was when it strolled into town once a year.

And it was, you know, I had to be available those five full days and. Eight hour days of, of learning. And it's, it's hard to take in all that information and really understand it in that type of setting. Um, and, and I mean now with COVID, it's, it's kind of, I think the way a lot of education is moving, um, to be a lot more flexible.

So I'm working on some courses for general code information, and then we have, um, Another company involved right now, who is putting together more specific courses on certain, on certain items. That are related to the code. So I guess the goal, the goal of the, um, as I mentioned, the one part of Kema is the school.

So the, really the goal is to be a hub, um, for building code and building code related courses by by different contributors. So, um, You know, just having, finding people specific knowledge and, and hosting a course for them. So when I, I mean, when I took, um, the certified professional course recently, one of the, one of the sections was on, um, elevators.

So. There was this passionate individual who spoke for like an hour and a half on the code, require the building code requirements of elevators, the elevator code requirements, um, the electrical code and, and it was just engaging. And those were the kind of people who, you know, they know their staff, their, they like to teach.

Um, And, you know, he shouldn't just be available to that one. That one course like he should, that knowledge needs to be spread to everyone who will listen. Um, so really finding people who want to, um, share their knowledge and having, you know, hosting, hosting, um, a school really, um, For all code code courses.

So that's, um, that's what we're up to right now. cool. Well, that's so fascinating. I, I know that you're gonna do good things and that people are gonna catch to this idea. I think it's absolutely something that's, um, worth doing. So I'm happy that you're. But, um, yeah, I wanted to get into just one or two, uh, professional development topics to, um, in the interview in traditional fire code tech fashion.

But, uh, yeah, I'm sure since you are steeped in, uh, You know, um, fire protection and life safety topics, and you're part of a community that writes posts about what's trending in the industry. You have, uh, some thoughts on what a trend in the industry is right now, in your opinion. I think a trend that I'm seeing a lot is just, um, more available education and resources.

So say, I mean, since I started this, um, keel Lima, you know, it's just, it's really opened me up to, um, seeing and finding people who are, who are trying to do a lot of the same stuff. Um, and kind of shifting more work online and getting that education and resources out there and really trying to build, um, like here.

I guess there just really isn't that building code community and knowledge sharing right now. But I think it's, it's something that people want and people are open to. So I think that, uh, COVID has been such a, it's just poured gasoline on the fire. That is, you know, people being able to provide resources online.

I've seen more webinars than I've ever seen before in my life. I, you know, there's been a couple. People starting blogs or online content, um, more new podcasts than ever. I mean, it's kind of exploding right now. I feel like we're, we're at a point at which we're seeing, uh, you know, us trying to catch up to.

Technology and other, other industries that are more well developed. And I completely agree with you. And I also resonate with the thought of, you know, like the more you get into this space of trying to find resources and trying to promote people who are developing good content. You see that just how much is out there.

And it just kind of opens your eyes to. To this. And I don't know, I remember I've said so many times before I started fire code tech. You know, there's not enough resources, there's not enough resources. There's nobody out there doing it. And then like the more I am involved with fire code tech and the more that I look, the more that I just see that if you can just scour the internet and just, you know, look for all these people and everything, it's, there's more out there than you would think.

But yeah, I think it just needs a better light. On that is that another thing we have planned in Kele in the future is really, um, kind of like, I call it the future Wiki. Um, so right now on our site, like, and it's slow going. Um, but we have a resources page where we do try to put the stuff that we have found online that is, is really great.

Um, and we wanna tell people about, so I guess eventually what I, what. What I dream of, um, is a type of, kind of database and tools where it's, you know, all these, all these gems from online can be found easily. It's like, you know, you put in your, your code. Article or whatever subject you want. And then it's like, bam, bam, bam.

Here's all the great things that we've like filtered from the internet and made it easy for people to find, because there, there is good stuff out there. It's just, it is, you know, it takes a lot of time to dig for it and, and it just doesn't make sense to me for every, you know, we all, we're all using the same code.

It doesn't make sense for, you know, different people everywhere to be spending that time. Scouring the internet, like. Let's come together and make something that just makes it easier for everybody. So, and it's yeah, so I've been, I was actually working remotely, um, with my company since September. So for, you know, and it, it takes a groove to get into.

Um, but, um, by the time COVID hit, we, that kind of wasn't a change for us, but we, so I, even before the COVID, I. I just really realized how important it is to be able to share information, um, online and more digitally, um, and meet like that. So, um, yeah, it's just, it's very interesting how. um, I think things are just really gonna explode and just, there's gonna be a lot of good innovation, um, in making things better, um, because people not by choice, but, but it's the way we just really have to move ahead now.

So definitely no, I a hundred percent agree and yeah, it'll be interesting. I think that. There's a lot of promising innovation and just development of resources in store for the field. So I'm excited about it. Mm-hmm well, anyways, Kelsey, I just wanna thank you so much for coming on the show and I wanna stay in touch and keep checking up on Keila, Lima, and I'll be sure to, um, put a link to the website in the show notes.

Um, if. And also, if you just Google kilo, K I L O Lima, L I M a code community it'll come up. I'm sure. Um, but yeah, I just wanna thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed talking to you and I hope we can do it again. One day. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been it's, uh, it's been great and very excited and, um, yeah.

Thank you so much for seeing kind of the value in what we're doing and, and hosting us. It's it's pretty exciting. So it is exciting. Hmm. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codess and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next.